Profile of donofsandiego

It better coordinates the faction and decreases PPSH as commander filler. Infantry Fortifications is a really rare bonus. They also fixed the tool tip, so it actually has an identity. Push with guards, howis, and heavy tanks, then fall back to defenses.

Infantry fortifications is Tank Traps, bunkers, and Soviet Shu mines. Pretty gnarly stuff. Looks like fun for a more passive play style.

Shu mines are the German equivalent to the normal soviet mine. Do you mean the light antipersonnel mines?

..The game equivalent to commissar is to inspire the soldiers and remove the machine gun suppression...

You know, I'm open to a lot of things, but I really doubt that life with the commissar was sunshine and puppydogs. Unless you're trying to tell me that the wikipedia page on the Soviet commissars is inaccurate and they actually weren't enforcers of political ideology and effectively military police troops.

Now I have no trouble beleiving that Soviet officers in general were brave and could rally their troops to arms. But the commissars have already been established as not leading troops personally. Have I been misled?

Alright use common sence here

1) In MP you are in full control of the army you have at your disposal.

Yes, and we have already established how that's a construct of the video game, and in real life these squads would be recieving orders from their superiors, passed down to them by their own superiors, and so on. So any argument about how "you are in full control" only works from a gameplay perspective and has nothing to do with the authenticity or plausibility of what we're talking about.

2) Retreating in MP is regrouping at the frontline HQ. Desertion\Unauthorised retreat would be squads running off-map.

A retreat is a retreat is a retreat. Considering that maps are composed of points of strategic interest like towns or factories, it's not impossible that troops can be assigned it as their post, even if the HQ is somewhere behind them. And no, desertion is leaving your assigned post. And a soldiers post can be a pile of sandbags if that's what their commander wants.

3) When you retreat squads, you give them an order to retreat and regroup...

Yes, and who is "you" exactly? It's funny that you mention that because we've already discussed it like three posts before. That's what they're there for, for reading.

I'm not going to repeat myself because it was long and lengthy but you're welcome to read it in its entirety a half a scrollwheel's length above.

4) In campaing...

Nothing to reapond to here.

We're talking multiplayer not campaign.

In any case what is this stupid aurgument anyway?

Someone mentioned that the Commissar squad could recieve a forward retreat point, and that it made sense because "Order 227 was a thing", and Kasarov took umbrage to that.

I've just been arguing that it's neither a stereotypical depiction of order 227 nor is it somehow completely historically inaccurate.

Phrases like “Not one step back”, “fight till the last soldier/bullet/piece of blood” is all just war screams, like “Ura!”. If you see them somewhere, it doesn’t mean somebody meant Order 227.

"...Order No. 227 (Russian: Приказ № 227, Prikaz No. 227) was an order issued on 28 July 1942 by Joseph Stalin, who was acting as the People's Commissar of Defence. It is known for its line "Not a step back!" (Russian: Ни шагу назад!, romanized: Ni shagu nazad!), which became the primary slogan of the Soviet press in summer 1942..."

Kek. The commissar in the Red Army structure is a political officer, not a military officer, and had little to no tactical training. The commissar is equivalent to a Military Police commissioned officer and is definitely not who soldiers report to in battle;

Sure, but it doesn't detract from my statement. If comissars are the equivalent of Military Police, then it would also fall upon them to prevent soldiers from breaking orders and deserting, yes? Also, it's not like comissars had no authority to lead troops: "The political commissar held military rank equaling the unit commander to whom he was attached; moreover, the commissar also had the military authority to countermand the unit commander’s orders at any time." (I.E. an order to retreat that would break Order 227) That's according to Wikipedia. Please correct it if that is incorrect.

How I have interpreted the gamification it is that you, the player, are the rank structure and you, the player, thus represent the various officers that pass the order along and the guy talking back/taking orders is the squad leader. And by representing the whole command chain itself, you interact with squad leaders which then act on your behalf, in which everything proceeds in an orderly faction.

The game is all over the place as far as this goes. Supposedly you're commanding "squad" sized elements (which are really team sized, as far as a US army equivalent) so assumedly you're a platoon leader, but then playing as USF you not only give commands to a Lieutenant (who would be the same rank as you as a platoon leader), but to a Captain (above your rank) and even a Major! (Who generally doesn't lead troops but still outranks a platoon leader.) And not even to mention that the announcer refers to Penals as Penal Battalion sometimes. I mean maybe battalion is a smaller group in the Soviet army but again, it just goes to show that things are a bit goofy in the game.

Either way, it seems that what you're saying is that each squad receives orders from their next higher up on the chain of command. I think that makes sense.

But that means that the "squad" is receiving orders to retreat from their unit commander, and assuming that the commissar squad is attached to that unit, he would be the same rank as the unit commander. Meaning that he receives commands from higher than the unit commander.

Therefore, it would be like the commissar receiving word from the commander that the soldiers are to occupy a certain strategic point. Order 227, as I understand it, is to prevent retreats from a certain area without authorization from higher up. In that case, it doesn't matter if it's an "organized retreat" ordered by the unit commander if it will desert the objective that commander wanted held.

From what I understood in the video, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the commissars were involved in discipline and did in fact make sure that nobody retreated past a certain point, because that would fall under breaking discipline and Order 227. Of course, it was not always by shooting at the soldiers, and certainly not to the scale depicted by some hollywood movies, but it did happen nonetheless.

My primary point is this:

In my opinion, the Soviets had enough common sense to rally around an officer without the use of Order 227, and the inclusion of 227 in the justification of something so basic as an FRP implies that the Soviets did not have such common sense, which promotes negative stereotypes in one way or another and ultimately disrespects those who have died in the war and the few veterans alive today.

And I disagree that it promotes stereotypes, especially if it simply acts as a forward retreat point. In that case it's even breaking a stereotype that the campaign has set previously.

Also, I never said that Soviets were too stupid to rally around an officer or anything of the sort. The whole point is not that "In order for Soviets to recieve FRP we must talk about Order 227". It's that it would make sense in the context of the unit.

If the soviets had a unit like the USF Major or something like that, the whole Order 227 justification would be unnecessary, but it fits with the Commissar because as you yourself had said; the commissar is not a leader of troops but instead is concerned with enforcing discipline among the ranks.

Such a depiction of Order 227 is anything but stereotypical and if anything is more authentic than the way the campaign depicts it.