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USA September patch discussion

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15 Aug 2019, 18:40 PM
#61
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 445

Tank traps don't work when facing mgs. It is sad because I used to build them to protect my squads from mgs. I would try to guess a good spot to place them and then try to battle it out, but the opponent would just a-move his mg and suppress my squad.

Sandbags are semi-reliable at protecting from mgs but are better than tank traps. It is like usf is not allowed to do anything in team games but spam riflemen and get suppressed by multiple mgs. Tatical play is not allowed.

15 Aug 2019, 18:47 PM
#62
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2679



At the moment they trade pretty much equally with Grens and Volks at max range, which means in effect that Riflemen trade worse because they are more expensive. So long range goes to the Axis mainlines (which is intended). Near and mid range should go to Riflemen, but we felt that their near range DPS felt a bit lackluster for this dynamic. The new values should reward positioning a bit better by making Riflemen feel more at home in the shorter ranges. A succesful ambush or succesfully closing in without taking too many casualties should now be rewarded more.

+1

all while nerfing volks don't forget


Oh no 10 manpower more to build oh jesus a whole 8 second delay on a 4 volk opening.



Thanks, that's a much better description of what the goal was with these changes.

That said, I think this will just end up with (slightly) stronger double-bar blobs, which isn't a gameplay style I really want to support. Still, I'll reserve any real judgement until I play the patch-preview.


Remember that this won't change BAR damage profiles, and the vast vast majority of damage at that point is going to be coming from the BARs exclusively. It's drops in the bucket at that point.

Can we consider giving REs sandbags instead of tanktraps? It's really difficult to get all your squad members behind a thin piece of green cover sometimes and it often leads to being suppressed by MGs even though you're behind green cover


+1

Isn't there any option to reintroduce the upkeep cost decrease like USF had in VCoH? I mean, playing USF just feels like a nonstop bleeding wound when it comes to mp.


IMO that's mostly because rifles don't trade that well currently, especially against OKW, until you invest like 400+ muni and get hordes of BARs. That would be a very interesting mechanic though.
15 Aug 2019, 19:05 PM
#63
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 505

Remember that this won't change BAR damage profiles, and the vast vast majority of damage at that point is going to be coming from the BARs exclusively. It's drops in the bucket at that point.


It actually works out to larger than it seems - it's an 18.8% increase in DPS at range 6, with a single bar it's a 12.85% increase, and with two bars it's an 8.4% increase. It's not massive, but it is about the same DPS increase at ranges 0-6 that you'd get from adding an extra model to the squad.
15 Aug 2019, 19:07 PM
#64
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 808

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 18:47 PMLoopDloop


Remember that this won't change BAR damage profiles, and the vast vast majority of damage at that point is going to be coming from the BARs exclusively. It's drops in the bucket at that point

IMO that's mostly because rifles don't trade that well currently, especially against OKW, until you invest like 400+ muni and get hordes of BARs. That would be a very interesting mechanic though.


BAR's upgrade rifles at every range, but 1 Bar is only really equal to 2 or 2.3 Garands At Close or long range Respectively. Which is why they don't feel that defined, average at every range but only great in knife fight range since BARS only do great damage at min range 5.


IF you wanted to make usf scale better 50 muni bars and 60 muni lmgs would be a soft way to do it. The USF Lmg costs 70 because you can get 2, but they removed that now you can only get 1 so the rationale for the change is gone but the effect remains.

Bar's are always an upgrade but not nearly as efficient at any 1 range like Grens getting an lmg to quadruple model damage at long range. so that's more of a mixed bag. Upgrades would be the next thing to look at if you want to define rifles more, which I think is a good direction since they aren't actually "Weak" but they don't trade well at most ranges.
15 Aug 2019, 20:37 PM
#65
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2605 | Subs: 1

What about the matchup vs Assgrenadiers? This should give Riflemen an edge versus rushing AG?
15 Aug 2019, 20:39 PM
#66
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3901

same
15 Aug 2019, 20:52 PM
#67
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13668 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 20:37 PMEsxile
What about the matchup vs Assgrenadiers? This should give Riflemen an edge versus rushing AG?

It has minimal impact, because they have longer short range.
15 Aug 2019, 21:00 PM
#68
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 468

SEPTEMBER 2019 PATCH PREVIEW - Version 1.1 Changes

USF
Changes to both of the following units were discussed before release. The team has decided to include for testing after initial feedback.

Riflemen
We think Riflemen are solid infantry that scale very well, but we would like to put more emphasis on the engagement range dynamics between them and long range Axis squads. Their near range (and thereby their near DPS) will be slightly increased, which will naturally slightly increase their DPS up to range 16
- Near range from 3 to 6


(Chart amended from https://coh2db.com/stats/ )

Rear Echelon Troops
To make Rear Echelon Troops carbines perform more consistently, as currently they are very RNG dependent with their low accuracy but high rate of fire and damage, their accuracy has been increased. In return their damage per bullet will be reduced, to keep the same total DPS as now
- Damage from 10 to 8
- Accuracy from 0.403/0.288/0.23 to 0.51/0.3456/0.276

Could this please be incorporated into the opening thread and the general patch overview thread? Otherwise it's hard to keep track of the current state of the patch.
15 Aug 2019, 21:23 PM
#69
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3156 | Subs: 1


Could this please be incorporated into the opening thread and the general patch overview thread? Otherwise it's hard to keep track of the current state of the patch.


Done. Sander did his own post as well as me.
15 Aug 2019, 21:54 PM
#70
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 468



Done. Sander did his own post as well as me.

Perfect, thanks!
16 Aug 2019, 02:59 AM
#71
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 596


We were also considering 150 fuel for the jackson nerf, but wanted to be conservative give the other changes to usf's late game and just how essential the jackson is to any usf composition.



Ever considered to raise Jackson pop by 1 instead?
Its much better than firefly with the same pop.
It also got crew repairs that doubles as jump out build more units trick.
16 Aug 2019, 03:31 AM
#72
avatar of kdragoonD

Posts: 85

Not sure why they are buffing riflemen's dps. It's not like riflemen need additional damage early on. They should be buffing it's late game power a little bit imo.
16 Aug 2019, 03:35 AM
#73
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 542

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Aug 2019, 02:59 AMmrgame2


Ever considered to raise Jackson pop by 1 instead?
Its much better than firefly with the same pop.
It also got crew repairs that doubles as jump out build more units trick.


Pftt no way. All TDs and heavy-med armor pops are way too high as it is. All TDs like Jackson, Firefly, Jagpanzer IV, should be no more than 14 pop and all later game T3/4 tanks like Panther, Churchill, Comet should be no more than 16 pop.

Beyond that there is literally no reason to change the Jackson other than to appears complainers. It is a TD with 0 anti-infantry ability and is rather mediocre against super heavy armor like the Jagtiger, King Tiger or the Ferdinand. It is good against medium armor and Panthers but why that an issue when it's supposed to be good against those things?
16 Aug 2019, 03:40 AM
#74
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 596

Not sure why they are buffing riflemen's dps. It's not like riflemen need additional damage early on. They should be buffing it's late game power a little bit imo.


Rifles have best moving accruacy and good vet bonus.
Imo this buff serious destroy ost infantry and support weapon play. Seems like rifles will become sturm like against grens and mg42 mortars..
16 Aug 2019, 03:41 AM
#75
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 420

Not sure why they are buffing riflemen's dps. It's not like riflemen need additional damage early on. They should be buffing it's late game power a little bit imo.


I think it's a great change for making USF a bit less shaky in the early game versus OKW. I honestly doubt it'll have much weight beyond that, given long range DPS is totally unchanged, but its significant enough in that context alone.

Plus USF is going to need more early game power now that all their late-game indirect fire units got nerfed lol.
16 Aug 2019, 03:50 AM
#76
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 420

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Aug 2019, 03:40 AMmrgame2


Rifles have best moving accruacy and good vet bonus.
Imo this buff serious destroy ost infantry and support weapon play. Seems like rifles will become sturm like against grens and mg42 mortars..


Yeah dude this 3 range increase to short range dps is going to fucking destroy the game balance. Riflemen squads will be wiping team weapons like fucking obers, just you see!

God, why is every single thing about USF some overblown concern about how Ostheer is hopelessly screwed since it has absolutely no way to fight against all these (infantry/indirect/tanks/tank destroyers)

I mean, how is this change going to make all MG42s and mortars useless all of a sudden? Does this magically give riflemen the ability to ignore suppression and close on gren squads without dropping any models? Do you have this problem versus Ass Engies? Cav Rifles?

How come nobody concern trolls about the fact Soviets can't use half of their fucking units
16 Aug 2019, 04:00 AM
#77
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 542



Yeah dude this 3 range increase to short range dps is going to fucking destroy the game balance. Riflemen squads will be wiping team weapons like fucking obers, just you see!

God, why is every single thing about USF some overblown concern about how Ostheer is hopelessly screwed since it has absolutely no way to fight against all these (infantry/indirect/tanks/tank destroyers)

I mean, how is this change going to make all MG42s and mortars useless all of a sudden? Does this magically give riflemen the ability to ignore suppression and close on gren squads without dropping any models? Do you have this problem versus Ass Engies? Cav Rifles?

How come nobody concern trolls about the fact Soviets can't use half of their fucking units


No kidding Riflemen are friggen terrible early game for a 280 MP unit.
16 Aug 2019, 04:08 AM
#78
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2679

Not sure why they are buffing riflemen's dps. It's not like riflemen need additional damage early on. They should be buffing it's late game power a little bit imo.


That's what double BARs are for though. IMO rifles are some of the best mainlines in the lategame with the investment and the veterancy (but you have to keep them alive lol), and they don't really need help there, especially with excellent sherman HE and good indirect fire options to boot.

They're getting better DPS at mid range in order to make it so that they actually trade well when they're at ideal ranges, and not just barely win out in ideal scenarios (barely because dropping 3 volk models and losing 2 rifle models isn't that great of a trade considering they're more expensive to reinforce and volks will beat rifles pretty handily at long range as they should, and OKW's got a sturmpio out there to trade really well while USF has an RE which can't trade with anything). It's not even going to change point blank engagements anyway if you check the curve too, just more the 6-15 range where they're theoretically supposed to shine and justify that 28 manpower reinforce cost.
16 Aug 2019, 04:27 AM
#79
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 596



Yeah dude this 3 range increase to short range dps is going to fucking destroy the game balance. Riflemen squads will be wiping team weapons like fucking obers, just you see!

God, why is every single thing about USF some overblown concern about how Ostheer is hopelessly screwed since it has absolutely no way to fight against all these (infantry/indirect/tanks/tank destroyers)

I mean, how is this change going to make all MG42s and mortars useless all of a sudden? Does this magically give riflemen the ability to ignore suppression and close on gren squads without dropping any models? Do you have this problem versus Ass Engies? Cav Rifles?

How come nobody concern trolls about the fact Soviets can't use half of their fucking units


Because its statically proven ost is currently the worse faction.
Rifles and re buff allows it to trade well against early okw, but now ost is going to fall behind further.
Usf rifles are a beast late game with vet and upgrades.
Cavs and asseng are doctrine and we pretty much accept they are going to rape grens and weapon teams
16 Aug 2019, 05:19 AM
#80
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 420

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Aug 2019, 04:27 AMmrgame2


Because its statically proven ost is currently the worse faction.
Rifles and re buff allows it to trade well against early okw, but now ost is going to fall behind further.
Usf rifles are a beast late game with vet and upgrades.
Cavs and asseng are doctrine and we pretty much accept they are going to rape grens and weapon teams


Calling the RE change a buff shows exactly where you're coming from, at least. Their dps stays exactly the same and the only major change is they'll now do less damage to vehicles.

USF Rifles are pretty good at vet 3, yeah, once they've got the RA bonus, 20% cooldown reduction and 30% accuracy bonus, sure. 120 munitions of BARs and three levels of vet are enough to make even Ostruppen deadly, however, so that's a non-argument.

You admit this change is helpful for tackling OKW but are concerned Ostheer sucks shit still, fine. Go tell them to buff Grens reinforcement cost or something. But as it stands 280mp RM are standing only more or less equivalent to 250mp Volkgrens and immediately fall behind once vet 1 and/or STG44s hit. And again, at short range you should be losing to RM anyway, be it Volks or Grens, and if you're playing Ostheer you've got the best HMG in the game right there at T0 to try to zone out riflemen. If you screw up and they flank the MG or your mortars or whatever, you're also, again, going to lose to the rifle squad anyway.

Why not instead be happy the only non-doc USF counters to static ostheer play besides the shittastic mortar are getting nerfed into obscurity? Your concern regards team weapons after all.
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