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Pershing vs Tiger. Shouldn't Pershing be buffed?

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15 May 2021, 16:01 PM
#1
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 362

They cost pretty much the same (630mp + 230fuel vs 640mp + 230fuel), but tiger has been spotted many times in ML, and none(AFAIK) of the Pershing on field. And I believe there is a good reason to it.

Pershing's stat is simply not worth it after the last nerf.

1) Armor & health
Tiger: 1040 health + 300 armor
Pershing: 960 health + 270 armor

Even Panther & Brummbarr has same (or higher after vetted) armor than "HEAVY" tank that costs 230fuel.

2) gun
Pershing has pen. of +20 on every range. And deals better in AI. But Tiger shoots faster.
How fast? Combined with 1), Tiger vet.3 wins over Pershing vet.3 in any range. Even vet.0 Tiger has 50:50 on vet3 Pershing.

3) vet
Pershing / Tiger
vet1: acceleration + 30% / Blitzkrieg
vet2: turret rotation + 20% + unlock grenade / range +5 + accuracy + 20% + turret rotation +30%
vet3: accuracy + 20% + reload -30% / reload - 30% + rotation + 20% + max. speed + 20% + acceleration + 20%

This TBH is just way in favor of Tiger. It gets range +5 while Pershing gets to throw grenade....
Really revamp needs to be done here in the Pershing's favor.

Overall, Pershing is inferior in all ways except for the AI a little.
As I've mentioned, Vet3 Pershing lose to the vet0 Tiger.

I haven't seen Pershing commander in any mode recently. Any thoughts on this topic?
15 May 2021, 16:13 PM
#2
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 303

i think pershing per se is fine, since it can deal substantial amount of AI, can pen heavys and has resonable speed.

Additionally it can be buffed to absurd levels with combined arms.

The main drawback of the pershing is however its maintenance. Rear echalons take ages to repair it, and when you go pershing its basically your only AI (you only wanna be spamming jacksons afterwards)

The repair issue is gonna be adressed next patch, so if i would buff the pershing in any way it would be by putting its armor back to 300 to reduce maintenance and tough it up a little
15 May 2021, 16:28 PM
#3
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3122 | Subs: 7

Your comparison leaves out two major differences. Which are that the Pershing has Combined Arms in the same commander that substantially buffs it temporarily, and that it's supported by 60 range highly mobile Jacksons rather than cumbersome casemate TDs or expensive Panthers. The Pershing and Tiger operate in different ecosystems.

The Pershing has very good AI, good AT, and both are even better with CA (which is the only late game munitiosn dump in the commander), and as Fire and Terror already mentioned the only big down side is the upkeep in repairs. Which is being addressed next patch. It will also finally get speed with vet, allowing it to keep its mobility advantage over the Tiger when both are fully vetted.
15 May 2021, 17:32 PM
#4
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3090 | Subs: 2

Could give it a Tank commander or .50 cal upgrade, I think the turret model supports but I'm not entirely sure.
15 May 2021, 17:35 PM
#5
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 479

Its vet is bad, that's about it.

Adding a pintle or commander would also help.
15 May 2021, 17:51 PM
#6
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Your comparison leaves out two major differences. Which are that the Pershing has Combined Arms in the same commander that substantially buffs it temporarily, and that it's supported by 60 range highly mobile Jacksons rather than cumbersome casemate TDs or expensive Panthers. The Pershing and Tiger operate in different ecosystems.

The Pershing has very good AI, good AT, and both are even better with CA (which is the only late game munitiosn dump in the commander), and as Fire and Terror already mentioned the only big down side is the upkeep in repairs. Which is being addressed next patch. It will also finally get speed with vet, allowing it to keep its mobility advantage over the Tiger when both are fully vetted.


Should the vet reload bonuses be adjusted on all vehicles who have "wind" values?
15 May 2021, 17:56 PM
#7
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1865

They cost pretty much the same (630mp + 230fuel vs 640mp + 230fuel), but tiger has been spotted many times in ML, and none(AFAIK) of the Pershing in field. And I believe there is a good reason to it.

Pershing's stat is simply not worth it after the last nerf.

1) Armor & health
Tiger: 1040 health + 300 armor
Pershing: 960 health + 270 armor

Even Panther & Brummbarr has same or (higher after vetted) armor than "HEAVY" tank that costs 230fuel.

2) gun
Pershing has pen. of +20 on every range. And deals better in AI. But Tiger shoots faster.
How fast? Combined with 1), Tiger vet.3 wins over Pershing vet.3 in any range. Even vet.0 Tiger has 50:50 on vet3 Pershing.

3) vet
Pershing / Tiger
vet1: acceleration + 30% / Blitzkrieg
vet2: turret rotation + 20% + unlock grenade / range +5 + accuracy + 20% + turret rotation +30%
vet3: accuracy + 20% + reload -30% / reload - 30% + rotation + 20% + max. speed + 20% + acceleration + 20%

This TBH is just way in favor of Tiger. It gets range +5 while Pershing gets to throw grenade....
Really revamp needs to be done here in the Pershing's favor.

Overall, Pershing is inferior in all ways except for the AI a little.
As I've mentioned, Vet3 Pershing lose to the vet0 Tiger.

I haven't seen Pershing commander in any mode recently. Any thoughts on this topic?


I've played against it in 3v3's. The AI seems to be pretty good and it isn't easy to kill. It's just usually not a good 4v4 tank.

The Tiger seems okay. I got an OKW one to vet 5 yesterday, but it was on Essen. Even at that, I had to use the mechanized repairs and a vetted sturmpio constantly. It has the same repair problem that the Pershing does and is so-so against blobbers at low vet.
15 May 2021, 18:48 PM
#8
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1865

Could give it a Tank commander or .50 cal upgrade, I think the turret model supports but I'm not entirely sure.


A tank commander upgrade that allows it to call in the TOT arty would instantly make this commander more viable in larger game modes. It would also give the doctrine another ammo sink.
15 May 2021, 18:58 PM
#9
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1112

i think pershing per se is fine, since it can deal substantial amount of AI, can pen heavys and has resonable speed.

Additionally it can be buffed to absurd levels with combined arms.

The main drawback of the pershing is however its maintenance. Rear echalons take ages to repair it, and when you go pershing its basically your only AI (you only wanna be spamming jacksons afterwards)

The repair issue is gonna be adressed next patch, so if i would buff the pershing in any way it would be by putting its armor back to 300 to reduce maintenance and tough it up a little


This. Pershing really needs an armour buff in the final update. That's it. It is inferior to Tiger in HP, armour, ROF, etc. but USF has other tanks to deal with the tiger (which is supposed to be the pinnacle of tank design in WW2).

Including the combined arms into the equation is in poor taste, as it's quite expensive. I don't think that past the minute 20, I've ever had more than 100 muni in the bank. Spent on nades, smokes, upgrades, Jackson, AT gun... I'd seldom include the combined arms into any equation as it's really a special type of an ability that is only activated if you have infantry next to the tanks. Quite potent but also a double edged sword. Since infantry + tanks usually means crowded which is good for AT guns and stukas...
15 May 2021, 19:06 PM
#10
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1112

Your comparison leaves out two major differences. Which are that the Pershing has Combined Arms in the same commander that substantially buffs it temporarily, and that it's supported by 60 range highly mobile Jacksons rather than cumbersome casemate TDs or expensive Panthers. The Pershing and Tiger operate in different ecosystems.

The Pershing has very good AI, good AT, and both are even better with CA (which is the only late game munitiosn dump in the commander), and as Fire and Terror already mentioned the only big down side is the upkeep in repairs. Which is being addressed next patch. It will also finally get speed with vet, allowing it to keep its mobility advantage over the Tiger when both are fully vetted.


Not quite wrong, but also not quite right.

Combined arms is the muni sink in 1v1s and MAYBE 2v2s only. But jackson AP ammo + nades + smoke nades + offmap smoke + upgrades or dropped zooks/BARs + maybe pak howi only viable blob deterrent, the phosphorous.

So yeah, in 1v1s a lot of that is underused since you'll be dealing with one or two tanks at the most and there will be no blobs. But in teamgames, saying that combined arms is viable... it's not. The only time I've ever had more than 100 muni in the bank is... never. Past minute 20 that is. Buffing the armour to 300 OR adding 50 cal upgrade OR adding some sort of commander like the brits one would make the Pershing much more viable. I mean, in 3v3+ the self retreating raketen walls keep the pershing at bay quite easily and micro free, which forces you to really coordinate with (God give me one in team) the soviet for barrages.
15 May 2021, 20:34 PM
#11
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5263

i think id sooner see some interesting ability than stat changes. perhaps an ability that increases its moving modifier and lowers its target size while moving to highlight mobility. im sure it would end up like blitz as an "oh shit i dont wanna die" type escape ability, but at least that would allow for a more interesting alternative to simple stat changes
15 May 2021, 20:56 PM
#12
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 687

At least Pershing should be cheaper
15 May 2021, 21:02 PM
#13
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4044 | Subs: 3

It's definitely worse than the tiger in a 1v1, but it's not that bad. I think the doctrine is a bit lackluster for teamgames because you really want calliope or priest, but that's about it.
15 May 2021, 21:14 PM
#14
avatar of Ashmole

Posts: 58

At least Pershing should be cheaper

I'd be OK with it if it was either cheaper or they increased the unit cap to 2. It's pretty easy to counter as Ost. You can build a pak gun and a panther to consistently pen it. It's supposed to be comparable to a Panther so why not just go that route?
16 May 2021, 04:29 AM
#15
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1710

I will give pershing an acceleration buff at vet3, to 2.2 from 2. Panther vet3 accel is 2.4 while Tiger vet3 is 1.8.

This should make pershing clearly better on the move and imo better than tiger in 2v2

Pershing is very good tank in 2v2, not good for 4v4 because you better off building extra jackson in 4v4.

likewise, in 4v4, it is not recommended to build tiger. Get a jp4 or stall for Elefant etc.
MMX
16 May 2021, 06:39 AM
#16
avatar of MMX

Posts: 840 | Subs: 1

I think the Pershing is a formidable tank, though a bit more armor or a slight buff to mobility would certainly not hurt. The Tiger vs Pershing matchup might be skewed towards the Tiger under normal circumstances, but the often neglected HVAP skill shot can make a huge difference here. It's admittedly a bit awkward to aim thanks to the 2.5 s aim time but it add 50% more damage and decent pen at all ranges to the mix - and that at a whopping 70 range! Not only is this helpful as a finishing blow if the Tiger somehow manages to limp out of regular gun range, the 240 damage also cuts down the required shots to kill it by 1 (due to the Tiger having 1040 HP).

In general people seem to underestimate and underutilize the skill shot by a lot, even though it's not only useful as an AT tool but also has a huge AoE and OHK radius (2.58) paired with zero (!) scatter. That means you can use it to take out team weapons, such as AT guns, from a safe distance with often only one shot - even through most shotblockers and houses (example in the spoiler below).



The trick is to position the tank more or less exactly 70 m away from the planned point of impact (easily doable using the in-game range indicator for the HVAP shot as a guide). This can also be used to great effect to take down garrisons, though depending on the HP of the building more than one shot may be required. Though it has to be said that elevation can sometimes screw this up quite badly, so results may vary.

EDIT: corrected the OHK radius of the HVAP skillshot, which is even larger (a whopping 2.58 m)
16 May 2021, 07:09 AM
#17
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 365

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 06:39 AMMMX
I think the Pershing is a formidable tank, though a bit more armor or a slight buff to mobility would certainly not hurt. The Tiger vs Pershing matchup might be skewed towards the Tiger under normal circumstances, but the often neglected HVAP skill shot can make a huge difference here. It's admittedly a bit awkward to aim thanks to the 2.5 s aim time but it add 50% more damage and decent pen at all ranges to the mix - and that at a whopping 70 range! Not only is this helpful as a finishing blow if the Tiger somehow manages to limp out of regular gun range, the 240 damage also cuts down the required shots to kill it by 1 (due to the Tiger having 1040 HP).

In general people seem to underestimate and underutilize the skill shot by a lot, even though it's not only useful as an AT tool but also has a huge AoE and OHK radius (1.25) paired with zero (!) scatter. That means you can use it to take out team weapons, such as AT guns, from a safe distance with often only one shot - even through most shotblockers and houses (example in the spoiler below).



The trick is to position the tank more or less exactly 70 m away from the planned point of impact (easily doable using the in-game range indicator for the HVAP shot as a guide). This can also be used to great effect to take down garrisons, though depending on the HP of the building more than one shot may be required. Though it has to be said that elevation can sometimes screw this up quite badly, so results may vary.


Hvap round is underappreciated, Iv used it almost every time iv used the pershing. I swear sometimes it fails to go the full range, I think thats fixed in the upcoming patch. (Edit: Ill admit didn't read your last bit, likely would be the elevation).

I dont think many people know that its world piercing and deals 240 dmg with incredible range and soon will have guaranteed pen.

Also because no one has stated it, the Pershing also has 75% moving accuracy over the tiger/is2.
16 May 2021, 08:11 AM
#18
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 515

As fast as P4J, armor and HP similar to Panther and its AOE is second to KT's, while Tiger's AOE is pretty much the worst in its class. Its MG performance is pretty bad though + no pintle. So if you fire further then 35 range at infantry, then it is pretty great in terms of anti-infatnry performance. It smashes infantry pretty consistently and because of high acceleration and speed can retreat quite fast.

I think pershing is not viable, because doctrine is not viable. Rangers are not meta, smoke barrage is good, but expensive + USF already has lots of it. Sandbags, mines and combined arms are great, but that's about it. It seems that Pershing by itself is not worth picking the commander.

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 06:39 AMMMX

In general people seem to underestimate and underutilize the skill shot by a lot, even though it's not only useful as an AT tool but also has a huge AoE and OHK radius (1.25) paired with zero (!) scatter. That means you can use it to take out team weapons, such as AT guns, from a safe distance with often only one shot - even through most shotblockers and houses (example in the spoiler below).

Wow, had no clue about it. Just tested it and it hurts like a truck. But the price kind of hurts a little, so it is far from spamable.
MMX
16 May 2021, 08:39 AM
#19
avatar of MMX

Posts: 840 | Subs: 1



Hvap round is underappreciated, Iv used it almost every time iv used the pershing. I swear sometimes it fails to go the full range, I think thats fixed in the upcoming patch. (Edit: Ill admit didn't read your last bit, likely would be the elevation).

I dont think many people know that its world piercing and deals 240 dmg with incredible range and soon will have guaranteed pen.

Also because no one has stated it, the Pershing also has 75% moving accuracy over the tiger/is2.


accuracy is a good point; the pershing has a quite significant edge over the tiger in this regard, even without considering the higher moving acc (base values of 0.06, 0.045, 0.035 vs 0.05, 0.0375, 0.025 (n,m,f) for m26 and tiger, respectively). on top of this the pershing has a slightly lower target size as well.

As fast as P4J, armor and HP similar to Panther and its AOE is second to KT's, while Tiger's AOE is pretty much the worst in its class. Its MG performance is pretty bad though + no pintle. So if you fire further then 35 range at infantry, then it is pretty great in terms of anti-infatnry performance. It smashes infantry pretty consistently and because of high acceleration and speed can retreat quite fast.

I think pershing is not viable, because doctrine is not viable. Rangers are not meta, smoke barrage is good, but expensive + USF already has lots of it. Sandbags, mines and combined arms are great, but that's about it. It seems that Pershing by itself is not worth picking the commander.


Wow, had no clue about it. Just tested it and it hurts like a truck. But the price kind of hurts a little, so it is far from spamable.


yeah the price is quite a drawback, especially if you get unlucky and the shell collides with a tiny bump between your tank and the target after already piercing several hedges and a house. would be nice if the HVAP shot could be a bit more consistent, although things like the huge AoE would probably have to be tuned down a bit in return.


16 May 2021, 11:13 AM
#20
avatar of GoforGiantsV3

Posts: 65

Frankly. 800HP pershing was better. At least it gets 50% reload bonus at V3 so It had some advantage about DPS parts.

Both IS2 and Tiger 1 have max speed 0ver 6.0 so Pershing's 6.0 max speed wasn't a big benefit at all.
And both tanks gets reload bonus at V2 30%. But after nerf Pershing gets it same 30% at V3.

Ice glacis speed rate? Tiger and IS is 60% but pershing is 15%. Need to be buffed to 80% as same as easy 8.

And also. IS and Tiger gets 50 range main gun at V2. But Pershing doesn't.

At now. Pershing needs to be buffed at ALL Parts now.
There is no benefit with same cost Heavy tanks now.
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