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Pershing vs Tiger. Shouldn't Pershing be buffed?

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16 May 2021, 19:29 PM
#61
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 523



Then you also forget that picking Pershing means u have to give up on Calliope and Offmap abilities, so good luck breaking through MG and Pak walls later on while ur inf get massacred by pzweffer or stuka


Well, not every doctrine should fit the team game team weapon wall meta anyways. This doctrine is already one of the strong 1v1 picks for USF and was consistently top 1 for a long long time.
16 May 2021, 19:37 PM
#62
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5214



But...But... Tiger gets that range + 5 & ROF with stock vet. Ain't it? So maybe we should cut that out with active skill that costs something like 50 muni?

+

I have tested
vet3 Pershing + CA v.s. vet3 Tiger
on range 10 / 30 / 43 (between 40~45) 4 times each.

range 10: Pershing wins 1 time / lose 3 times
range 30: Pershing wins 1 time / lose 3 times
range 43: Pershing wins 2 times / lose 2 times
I did not bother to test more, but I can assure you without CA Pershing loses all the time on every range. (Unless Pershing gets extremely lucky). And if we include the fact that CA is getting nerf in next patch...

The tiger is a different tank in a different faction with a different economy. It's not 1=1 balance. The tiger has no capacity for Jackson support not dual BAR support. The tiger doesn't have self healing armour to support it. The Pershing doesn't fact allied TDs.

The Pershing loses in a slugging match with the tiger because it's SUPPOSED TO.
And in the end What the tiger is and can do is frankly irrelevant.
What matters is that the Pershing is balanced in its own faction for its own cost.
Usf tanks are specifically not intended to outlast enemy armour. The entire faction is built around this concept.
The Pershing is basicly a Panther with AI. Not a tiger of any strain.

The Pershing is a meaty tank for USF standards and is priced according. I WOULD like to see some ability that allows its mobility to be highlighted but frankly it's combat potential (especially with CA) is quite good its a reliable tank.
You cannot ignore the power spike that CA brings when balancing the Pershing.
16 May 2021, 19:38 PM
#63
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 1028

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 19:22 PMJilet
I think people that want to buff Pershing really need to consider that the unit will play with the ABSOLUTE BEST TD in the game. If any buffs, it should be to the price of the unit, not to the potency or combat effectives.


If you want to bring in supporting arms then noone can beat ost, their tiger come with better/easier to use support abilities, their stock line up is more round up and accessible to deal with all threats. In evnt the wost case, they can still rely on pak wall and an us player with Pershing dont have any tools to break that, as happened in tightrope's game.
16 May 2021, 19:41 PM
#64
avatar of minhuh064

Posts: 30


The tiger is a different tank in a different faction with a different economy. It's not 1=1 balance. The tiger has no capacity for Jackson support not dual BAR support. The tiger doesn't have self healing armour to support it. The Pershing doesn't fact allied TDs.

The Pershing loses in a slugging match with the tiger because it's SUPPOSED TO.
And in the end What the tiger is and can do is frankly irrelevant.
What matters is that the Pershing is balanced in its own faction for its own cost.
Usf tanks are specifically not intended to outlast enemy armour. The entire faction is built around this concept.
The Pershing is basicly a Panther with AI. Not a tiger of any strain.

The Pershing is a meaty tank for USF standards and is priced according. I WOULD like to see some ability that allows its mobility to be highlighted but frankly it's combat potential (especially with CA) is quite good its a reliable tank.
You cannot ignore the power spike that CA brings when balancing the Pershing.


If power spike scares you then why KT with Heat round still exists?
16 May 2021, 19:46 PM
#65
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 260

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 19:22 PMJilet
I think people that want to buff Pershing really need to consider that the unit will play with the ABSOLUTE BEST TD in the game.


Pershing has range of 45. If your argument states, Tiger is THE BEST TD in the game with range 50 at the moment!
16 May 2021, 19:48 PM
#66
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 1028


balanced in its own faction


If this is truth, isn't that mean the tiger or event ost tank in general should be less durable since they have access to pz tac, blitz, dmg reduction cmd pz and at delete button, etc ?
16 May 2021, 19:53 PM
#67
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3154 | Subs: 1


The tiger is a different tank in a different faction with a different economy. It's not 1=1 balance. The tiger has no capacity for Jackson support not dual BAR support. The tiger doesn't have self healing armour to support it. The Pershing doesn't fact allied TDs.

The Pershing loses in a slugging match with the tiger because it's SUPPOSED TO.
And in the end What the tiger is and can do is frankly irrelevant.
What matters is that the Pershing is balanced in its own faction for its own cost.
Usf tanks are specifically not intended to outlast enemy armour. The entire faction is built around this concept.
The Pershing is basicly a Panther with AI. Not a tiger of any strain.

The Pershing is a meaty tank for USF standards and is priced according. I WOULD like to see some ability that allows its mobility to be highlighted but frankly it's combat potential (especially with CA) is quite good its a reliable tank.
You cannot ignore the power spike that CA brings when balancing the Pershing.


USF doesn't have Brumbar or Panther or Pzwerfen equivalent to stand by the Pershing.

---

Pershing becoming the ultimate doctrine on 1vs isn't either an argument, 90% of doctrine picked as Ostheer on 1vs1 include a Tiger.

16 May 2021, 19:54 PM
#68
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 1028

it come back to what i pointed out, Pershing with extra investment and mirco can fire as fast as default tiger is crazy but tiger together with ability to counter it own counter on top of beating Pershing head on is something "supposed to" happen.
16 May 2021, 19:58 PM
#69
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 260


The tiger is a different tank in a different faction with a different economy. It's not 1=1 balance. The tiger has no capacity for Jackson support not dual BAR support. The tiger doesn't have self healing armour to support it. The Pershing doesn't fact allied TDs.


They are both heavy tank that can be called at cp12 with almost identical cost. Player expects the same role from it. Absorb dmg & deal dmg at the frontline.
Pershing doesn't have support from pak40(with weak target skill), stock rocket arty unit, mg42 (the best mg). So USF needs to break the line OST draw. And luck for Tiger, it doesn't face the Panther! WOW!


The Pershing loses in a slugging match with the tiger because it's SUPPOSED TO.
And in the end What the tiger is and can do is frankly irrelevant.
What matters is that the Pershing is balanced in its own faction for its own cost.
Usf tanks are specifically not intended to outlast enemy armour. The entire faction is built around this concept.


USF tanks are specifically not intended to outlast enemy armour but move faster & deals more dmg. Wouldn't Pershing firing faster than Tiger with less range(45vs50) more suits?


The Pershing is basicly a Panther with AI. Not a tiger of any strain.


I'm paying 630mp + 230 fuel for Panther with AI.


You cannot ignore the power spike that CA brings when balancing the Pershing.

I already tested power spike of CA to Pershing is weaker than vet3 Tiger.
I'd rather have passive CA than power spike. Thank you.
16 May 2021, 20:00 PM
#70
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 260

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 19:29 PMJilet

This doctrine is already one of the strong 1v1 picks for USF and was consistently top 1 for a long long time.


I don't remember pershing being a meta for a while in any match. In fact, Pershing on 1v1 is no longer threaten the enemy as it used to be. And yet, Tiger is still a meta for OST. Watch ML5.
16 May 2021, 20:03 PM
#71
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3125 | Subs: 1


The Pershing loses in a slugging match with the tiger because it's SUPPOSED TO.
And in the end What the tiger is and can do is frankly irrelevant.
What matters is that the Pershing is balanced in its own faction for its own cost.
Usf tanks are specifically not intended to outlast enemy armour. The entire faction is built around this concept.
The Pershing is basicly a Panther with AI. Not a tiger of any strain.

The Pershing is a meaty tank for USF standards and is priced according. I WOULD like to see some ability that allows its mobility to be highlighted but frankly it's combat potential (especially with CA) is quite good its a reliable tank.
You cannot ignore the power spike that CA brings when balancing the Pershing.

It's not priced accordingly at all. Especially if you're telling me that a 110 muni ability that takes up a commander slot has to basically be considered a default for the unit

And I really don't get why people use "design" arguments for the WFA anymore. These factions don't even resemble launch design. Like not even close. If you're going to give USF a heavy tank, make it a heavy tank. Or remove it from the game entirely. Cause USF has more then enough ways to kill infantry, and none of the other ones require me to waste 230 freaking fuel
16 May 2021, 20:13 PM
#72
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 1028


It's not priced accordingly at all. Especially if you're telling me that a 110 muni ability that takes up a commander slot has to basically be considered a default for the unit


And dont forget the extra micro since the bonus dont just stack up. Taking advantage of the Pershing's mobility while maintain CA is easier said than done. It cant just "run in and gun out" like somebody said.
16 May 2021, 20:23 PM
#73
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 1028

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 19:29 PMJilet


Well, not every doctrine should fit the team game team weapon wall meta anyways. This doctrine is already one of the strong 1v1 picks for USF and was consistently top 1 for a long long time.


Event in 1v1, the story of picking Pershing then cant breakthrough pak wall while being massacred by weffer is clear as daylight in Tightrope 's game that has been post above and it is Tightrope we're talking about so i dont think that is player or skill issues. That game show how supporting arms make the differences.
16 May 2021, 21:19 PM
#74
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 180


It's not priced accordingly at all. Especially if you're telling me that a 110 muni ability that takes up a commander slot has to basically be considered a default for the unit

And I really don't get why people use "design" arguments for the WFA anymore. These factions don't even resemble launch design. Like not even close. If you're going to give USF a heavy tank, make it a heavy tank. Or remove it from the game entirely. Cause USF has more then enough ways to kill infantry, and none of the other ones require me to waste 230 freaking fuel


Sidenote: are there any videos/ playlists of demonstrations of the factions before reworks and such? I came in in 2019 and missed most of the absolute insanity and I wanted to see what it was like.
16 May 2021, 23:17 PM
#75
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5214


It's not priced accordingly at all. Especially if you're telling me that a 110 muni ability that takes up a commander slot has to basically be considered a default for the unit

And I really don't get why people use "design" arguments for the WFA anymore. These factions don't even resemble launch design. Like not even close. If you're going to give USF a heavy tank, make it a heavy tank. Or remove it from the game entirely. Cause USF has more then enough ways to kill infantry, and none of the other ones require me to waste 230 freaking fuel


i didnt say that it WAS i said that it needs to be. how the tiger performs is entirely irrelevant.
both axis factions have panthers, if both got a panther with 4 levels of vet they would be costed and valued differently for both factions despite being the EXACT SAME vehicle. trying to nail cost efficiency based on values for other factions is worthless outside ballparking.
pershing=/=tiger because usf=/=ost
i SAID id like to see some more mobility, perhaps even an ability that reduces target size, but you CANNOT ignore the existance of CA and try and balance the perishing as if it doesn't exist. more range and more RoF are meaningful bonuses and can easily tip an ok unit to OP if not taken into account before hand. the abiility is there and NEEDS to be considered. weve had a number of abilities in the past that stacked with units in the commander and took them WAY over the top, B4+FRM and vet being able to OHK a king tiger for example or more recently Falls and for the fatherland... abilities and units that interact need to be conmsidered. dont treat CA like a mandatory ability be be aware that it CAN be used.

as for design, we abandon it now, as loose as it is and theres no point not just making the game a mirror match. itll be the only way to balance the game if we simply decide that counterbalance means nothing.
perishing is a heavy tank FOR ITS FACTION. one that as you say has no difficulty killing infantry, nor tanks actually... giving them a proper meatshield breaks that balance. they are VERY GOOD at killing everything, but at the cost of low staying power. you give them staying power and everything else has a rock to launch from. they are supposed to keep biting, not bite and hold. mobility and features to promote aggressive play could prove too much combined with the ability to out fight the enemy in a pitched fight as well.
17 May 2021, 00:29 AM
#76
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1698



Yeah, Tightrope did exactly what u dream of, look how that match played out in the end
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TkRJ-1fg-k&t=2845s&ab_channel=tightropegaming



Not sure what im supposed to see here?
17 May 2021, 00:34 AM
#77
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1698

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 19:25 PMKatitof

Pershing is the only heavy that did NOT had speed vet and what it got is half of what others get.


Where would be a patch note for that? Because it most certainly isn't in the current log.


Reload is not really a buff, but a compensation for another stat that diminishes actual value, which other heavies don't suffer. Its a fix, not a buff.


Its going back to being premium med instead of actual heavy, so yeah, its going to be skirmisher instead of brawler.


The patch note say Pershing loses 160hp but gains harder to hit, which helps in getting it back earlier without losing its surviving in battle.

Pershing is now faster, in and out of battle, and with a cp decrease, fitting its theme. USF theme. It can brawl fine in 2v2. Seems all round buff to me.

17 May 2021, 00:45 AM
#78
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1698

I guess for those who main usf, would make you happier if Pershing retains its 160hp extra and still get the target size buff, but remove the CA buffs and pop cap decrease?

though i use pershing in more open maps with buildings in 2v2. It is more supplement for Usf, since vetted rifles + jackson does the trick. vaux farmland is great map for pershing.
17 May 2021, 01:22 AM
#79
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 148

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 19:29 PMJilet


Well, not every doctrine should fit the team game team weapon wall meta anyways. This doctrine is already one of the strong 1v1 picks for USF and was consistently top 1 for a long long time.

it was meta since Heavies are faster timming and better AI power.However, After the Heavies nerf. M26 is on back foot because:
+ Cant actually brawling
+ DPS consider worse than tiger ( bescaue of lacking of tanky, Wind up wind down time, pen + worse vet).
+ Tiger has some Ground control Abilities to follow up: Ju-87 bombing, Light arty barrage, Loiter. Meanwhile M26 only have CA which is forcing USF mass blobing inf + tank together and get fucked by well placed mine, MG, pak gun.
+ Repair time LMAO, sad RE noise.
After all, genaral Heavies nerf made M26 worse than IS2, KT, Tiger + Tiger ACE. Why I had to pay so much resouces to a heavy tank not actually heavy tank, worse vet, lack of DPS ? Mobilites of M26 is not enough !, because panther can catch you, tiger can actually intercept you ?
Same story as Ez8, lack of powers, mobility for the price.

17 May 2021, 02:36 AM
#80
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 148


Stuka strafe doesnt buff the stats of the tiger. They support it, not make it itself simply better. Any changes to the Pershing have to be considered in combination with how it will look with CA modifying it.

You can whine all you want but an ability that increases range by 5 and rof by 30% NEEDS to be taken in consideration. You cannot have a Pershing and not have access to the ability. The effect of the ability needs to be in mind when tweaking the unit or we end up with for the father land falls all over again...

But Loiter, Ju-78 bombing, Light barrage can ground conrtrol while using CA. tiger + commander skill > M26 + CA in term of usefullness.
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