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Why Soviets are OP

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24 Sep 2020, 14:27 PM
#161
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


For T1 there's penals


penals are an earlygame damage dealer but cease to become a damage dealer the moment OKW/OST gets their weapon upgrades
24 Sep 2020, 14:31 PM
#162
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 14:24 PMgbem


uhh when the entire midgame of a faction relies on a doctrine you know the faction is badly designed... stock SOV is not as competitive as any of the stock options that other factions get simply because it will be deleted in the midgame



but the soviet early-midgame is weak... the reason why sov can punish OKW is because of the M3 and how T1 can absolutely body OKW... and even without ostruppen the moment grenadiers have a weapon upgrade conscripts start having and youre gonna have to fight tooth and nail till you get the T-70


All youre saying is that soviet early-mid game is weak cause its weak, id like to hear an argument why. You dont need a doc to compete, i dont understand why you say that. soviet stock army can deal with everything except ostruppen.
Yes soviet early-mid game isnt op imo, but far from weak.

You dont need an m3 against okw, double flamer and con spam is enough
24 Sep 2020, 14:37 PM
#163
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



All youre saying is that soviet early-mid game is weak cause its weak, id like to hear an argument why. You dont need a doc to compete, i dont understand why you say that. soviet stock army can deal with everything except ostruppen.
Yes soviet early-mid game isnt op imo, but far from weak.

You dont need an m3 against okw, double flamer and con spam is enough


i already said it... the moment volks/grens get weapon upgrades conscripts are gonna be fighting tooth and nail to survive... unupgraded conscripts cannot compete against LMG grenadiers or STG volks and the icing on the cake is that your MG is outright worse than both OKW and OST MGs....

and before you say flamer imma say now that ost gets a flamer aswell while OKW can just blob you to death... and before you say maxim ill say MG34 (which is better than the maxim)... and the flamer will not compensate for the fact that your mainline infantry and your machinegun is worse than theirs
24 Sep 2020, 14:47 PM
#165
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 14:37 PMgbem


i already said it... the moment volks/grens get weapon upgrades conscripts are gonna be fighting tooth and nail to survive... unupgraded conscripts cannot compete against LMG grenadiers or STG volks and the icing on the cake is that your MG is outright worse than both OKW and OST MGs....

and before you say flamer imma say now that ost gets a flamer aswell while OKW has the infantry to wreck conscripts with ease


flamer against soviet is suicide, have fun losing half of your men to mines and trip wires everytime you cap. and weapon upgrades dont help you push cons behind sandbags, kill a t70 or sweep mines. your inf is slightly stronger, not dominating
id take a mobile 6man maxim over mg34 any day, specially when you can keep it on the field with merge.
24 Sep 2020, 14:58 PM
#166
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 14:37 PMgbem


i already said it... the moment volks/grens get weapon upgrades conscripts are gonna be fighting tooth and nail to survive... unupgraded conscripts cannot compete against LMG grenadiers or STG volks and the icing on the cake is that your MG is outright worse than both OKW and OST MGs....

and before you say flamer imma say now that ost gets a flamer aswell while OKW can just blob you to death... and before you say maxim ill say MG34 (which is better than the maxim)... and the flamer will not compensate for the fact that your mainline infantry and your machinegun is worse than theirs


You are acting like LMG grens\STG volks feels like they are obers vs Cons.

This is blandly not true. While they are stonger and they would win 1v1 firefight if both stand in equal cover, it doesnt mean that they render cons absolite. They do have upper hand in a fair fight, but possitioning\flanking still alow cons to win engagements or at least force grens\volks to retreat after firefight.

Not to mention that un-upped grens would lose at close range and will win at long range. Volks at best will be forced to retreat after firefight if cons engage at mid\close range. So cons are hardly worst then grens\volks in early game. And non of them are CQC inf, meaning that even if they are stronger they have to keep distance and cover, so they cant beat cons in a blink of the eye if they are in cover.

Also OKW cant get mg34 strate of the bat, nor they can freely upgrade all their volks in a blink of the eye. Having flames against OKW would mean that you either force them into muni starvation because of medkits or force them into med HT, meaning much easier time for T70.

Not to mention that all upgrades comes by the time your can have your commander units unlocked. I dont see the problem, that 240MP unit looses to 240\260MP + 60m units in un-preferable environment.
24 Sep 2020, 15:10 PM
#167
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



flamer against soviet is suicide, have fun losing half of your men to mines and trip wires everytime you cap.

great soo the soviets need to spend huge amounts of muni on mines and tripwires while expecting to upgrade to flamers and expecting to match units that will absolutely destroy them outright...

it also means sacrificing much of the map in a defensively styled play while having 0 offensive potential at all...

also weapon upgrades > mines


and weapon upgrades dont help you push cons behind sandbags,


neither can conscripts actually push out volks/grens in sandbags let alone STG volks/LMG grens in sandbags... and STG volks can somewhat reliably defeat conscripts through the use of a flamenade...


kill a t70

early-midgame... no such thing as a T-70


or sweep mines.

did you know that OKW has mines too? sure they wont be able to afford it if they buy STGs but still...

also weapon upgrades > mines


your inf is slightly stronger, not dominating


correction... volksgrenadiers are slightly stronger than conscripts... but are dominating once they get the STG... conscripts and grenadiers are kinda balanced... but dominating once they get the LMG...


id take a mobile 6man maxim over mg34 any day, specially when you can keep it on the field with merge.


they have the same setup time soo "mobile" is a lie... 6 man is a lie when they get wiped just as easily due to deathloop... meanwhile the actual stats that make an MG useful such as suppression and firing arc are in favor of the MG34... merge is probably the only real argument here but it doesnt make the maxim as good as an mg34



to compare the midgame situation unit by unit
OST VS SOV
pio flamer = CE flamer
LMG grenadiers > conscripts
MG42 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maxim
pak 40 < zis-3
222/flamer HT > nothing... T-70 isnt out yet
teller mine + S-mine > sov mine (arguably)

literally the only unit sov gets better in the midgame is the zis 3
OKW VS SOV
sturmpio > CE flamer (unless urban map)
STG vloks > conscripts
MG34 > maxim
rak <<<<<<<<<<<<< zis-3
okw mine = sov mine
luchs and T-70 not out yet

okw still retains a large infantry advantage in a unit by unit comparison
24 Sep 2020, 15:50 PM
#168
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 15:10 PMgbem
snip


basically everything you say is very exaggerated.

weapon upgrades > mines is just wrong
an lmg-gren that hit a mine wont beat a con, same with stg volks. Mine spam is probably the strongest aspect of soviet play, dunno why you are trying to tell me its not. It legit destroys you when you dont sweep and not a single other faction can match soviets in their ability to spam them.
in the okw vs sov matchup, soviet mines cost the same and are stronger. Volks lose more dps per mine than cons, are more expensive to reinforce and are more spammable with double engies.
okw cant afford to spam mines, your sturm pios has to sweep and fight and you need the munis for stgs, flame nades and med crates.
in the ost vs soviet matchup, soviet mines bleed and force retreat on evey hit while s-mines can be avoided by reading signs. dunno how you can argue that ost mines are better when you can trade 10 muni for 30mp with one trip wire
Teller mines are gold, i agree on that

"it also means sacrificing much of the map in a defensively styled play while having 0 offensive potential at all..." simply not true, push off a squad and plant a mine, hows that defensive?

upgraded volks and lmg grens dont dominate cons, they just dont. And when we are talking about pre-light vehicle phase, you cant expect to have upgrades on all your units

id say the mid game starts with light vehicles/tanks hit the field, so t70 fits into early to mid game unit but i guess that depends on your definition of early/mid game.

the maxim is not shit but i guess im kinda alone on that opinion, supression is fine
and iirc it packs up alot faster than the mg34/42 so it is more mobile

note: i do hope we are talking about 1v1 and 2v2, otherwise this is pretty pointless

i suggest to watch some soviet tournament games, specially from asiamint
24 Sep 2020, 15:54 PM
#169
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

ostruppen are simply OP, i dont think anyone would argue about that and specially soviets suffer against them, that doesnt make the soviet early-mid game weak.


I disagree. I think putting timestamps will make it more clear as to what people might consider early/mid game stages.

0: Opening with anything other than Conscripts is slow. T2 is not realistically and T1 goes high risk mid reward with clowncar. Only viable against OKW.

3.30: 60 muni upgrades hit around this mark same with 1 CP.

4.30/5.00: 2nd set of 60 muni and 2 CP. With the usual 3 Con + 2 CE or 4 Con build here the main weakness are remarked.

At this point you juggle between getting AT grenades, molotovs (noob trap), medics, T2 and what unit do you want as 5th.
Depending on bleed, it's most likely gonna be an AT gun cause the FHT or Flak HT is hitting at 6 mins. +1 min the P2.

Same with muni expenditure. You can't have everything. U need some spare muni for AT nade. Sparingly or don't use oorah. If you go for SVT you won't have mines unless you decide to skip flamer or viceversa. Things get worst if you get Guards or went T1 Penals for PTRS.

From this point onward is all about surviving playing defensively with 25% to 40% of map control which means less resources. Soviets play expecting an Axis mistakes leading to wipes (generally MG) or destruction of light vehicles which will give them room to tech T3 for a T70 at around 9 min or more. Alternative they bunker down even more, get way more units with 2x AT gun till they manage to set up T4.

So the mid game is not necessarily weak by the units/tech but due to how they generally enter it.


24 Sep 2020, 16:18 PM
#170
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281



I disagree. I think putting timestamps will make it more clear as to what people might consider early/mid game stages.

0: Opening with anything other than Conscripts is slow. T2 is not realistically and T1 goes high risk mid reward with clowncar. Only viable against OKW.

3.30: 60 muni upgrades hit around this mark same with 1 CP.

4.30/5.00: 2nd set of 60 muni and 2 CP. With the usual 3 Con + 2 CE or 4 Con build here the main weakness are remarked.

At this point you juggle between getting AT grenades, molotovs (noob trap), medics, T2 and what unit do you want as 5th.
Depending on bleed, it's most likely gonna be an AT gun cause the FHT or Flak HT is hitting at 6 mins. +1 min the P2.

Same with muni expenditure. You can't have everything. U need some spare muni for AT nade. Sparingly or don't use oorah. If you go for SVT you won't have mines unless you decide to skip flamer or viceversa. Things get worst if you get Guards or went T1 Penals for PTRS.

From this point onward is all about surviving playing defensively with 25% to 40% of map control which means less resources. Soviets play expecting an Axis mistakes leading to wipes (generally MG) or destruction of light vehicles which will give them room to tech T3 for a T70 at around 9 min or more. Alternative they bunker down even more, get way more units with 2x AT gun till they manage to set up T4.

So the mid game is not necessarily weak by the units/tech but due to how they generally enter it.




im not entirely sure if we are talking about the ostruppen matchup or not :/ if so, you are right, otherwise:

3:30 for you first flamer is insanly late

4:30/5:00 except for the ostruppen matchup, soviets have more squads on the field than any other faction
i dont see the weakness

when okw goes for flak at 6min they only have 3 volks, soviets should have better map control by then.
spamming oorah is a noob trap, just dont do it.

You are right, during teching soviets are vulnerable but i dont get where "From this point onward is all about surviving playing defensively with 25% to 40% of map control" is coming from?
that happens against ostruppen, maybe assault grens on some maps and nothing else unless you get outplayed
skipping flamer when you go for svt cons is another trap imo
24 Sep 2020, 16:26 PM
#171
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


basically everything you say is very exaggerated.

weapon upgrades > mines is just wrong
an lmg-gren that hit a mine wont beat a con, same with stg volks. Mine spam is probably the strongest aspect of soviet play, dunno why you are trying to tell me its not. It legit destroys you when you dont sweep and not a single other faction can match soviets in their ability to spam them.
in the okw vs sov matchup, soviet mines cost the same and are stronger. Volks lose more dps per mine than cons, are more expensive to reinforce and are more spammable with double engies.
okw cant afford to spam mines, your sturm pios has to sweep and fight and you need the munis for stgs, flame nades and med crates.
in the ost vs soviet matchup, soviet mines bleed and force retreat on evey hit while s-mines can be avoided by reading signs. dunno how you can argue that ost mines are better when you can trade 10 muni for 30mp with one trip wire
Teller mines are gold, i agree on that


mines are powerful but its kinda bullshit to think that mines are a suitable replacement...
for starters weapon upgrades give alot more offensive potential... theyre way more mobile and are not hard countered by 30 munitions worth of sweepers... and theyre also not reliant on the enemy fumbling over the mine... yes mines are strong but they are NOT replacements to weapon upgrades...


"it also means sacrificing much of the map in a defensively styled play while having 0 offensive potential at all..." simply not true, push off a squad and plant a mine, hows that defensive?


push off a squad? with your inferior infantry?


upgraded volks and lmg grens dont dominate cons, they just dont. And when we are talking about pre-light vehicle phase, you cant expect to have upgrades on all your units


they actually do in a sense that you have to be in green cover to stand any chance against em as yellow cover is not enough for conscripts to win... hence the term dominate is applicable

also they can fire a riflenade (which is dogable) or flamenade you out of green cover pretty easily...

the maxim is not shit but i guess im kinda alone on that opinion, supression is fine
and iirc it packs up alot faster than the mg34/42 so it is more mobile


its suppression is worse than that of the mg34... yes it packs up faster by around a second but if youre trading firing arc and suppression for packup time alone then absolutely not worth it
24 Sep 2020, 16:45 PM
#172
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 11:55 AMgbem
not anymore... the 30% dps buff was removed

- Reload cover bonus from the Mobilize Reserves has been removed.


Only the reload bonus was removed. They still get -30% cooldown when in cover which increases DPS significantly.
24 Sep 2020, 18:36 PM
#173
avatar of Elpern

Posts: 82

A post like this can be made for every faction tbh, all factions have op units when put in scenarios
24 Sep 2020, 18:57 PM
#174
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 14:27 PMgbem


penals are an earlygame damage dealer but cease to become a damage dealer the moment OKW/OST gets their weapon upgrades

They perform well from cover and even better if supported by conscripts. Personally I'd like them to have to upgrade to their svts in a mutually exclusive branch from the ptrs' so that would leave room for alterations if you feel they are not up to snuff.
24 Sep 2020, 20:29 PM
#175
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



im not entirely sure if we are talking about the ostruppen matchup or not :/ if so, you are right, otherwise:

3:30 for you first flamer is insanly late

4:30/5:00 except for the ostruppen matchup, soviets have more squads on the field than any other faction
i dont see the weakness

when okw goes for flak at 6min they only have 3 volks, soviets should have better map control by then.
spamming oorah is a noob trap, just dont do it.

You are right, during teching soviets are vulnerable but i dont get where "From this point onward is all about surviving playing defensively with 25% to 40% of map control" is coming from?
that happens against ostruppen, maybe assault grens on some maps and nothing else unless you get outplayed
skipping flamer when you go for svt cons is another trap imo


The most notorious effect is in the T1 skip from OH, not with OKW. Still the causes are the same.

1- You should check timing of first flamer (60 muni and the time for the upgrade to kick). That's pretty much standard time and it hasn't changed in years. Around 3:00 u get 60 muni. Micro + been on territory + upgrade pushes it to 3:30. I can paste all games from last tournament and the timings are there.

2- Not really. SU gets 5 units transitioning to a 6th one. OKW gets 3 main lines + 1 SP + another Volk/MG/Kubel at that point.
OH match up with Osstruppen is not necessarily outnumbering on squads but they still trade much more effectively.

3- The playing from behind comes from the current OH meta mostly.
The OKW vs SU is balanced favouring SU IMO. Still you expect to lose territory when spending on tech at that timing, plus the faster LV OKW can get. The only thing is that it's not as drastic as OH and OKW is much harder to transition if they go mechanized.
24 Sep 2020, 21:13 PM
#176
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281



The most notorious effect is in the T1 skip from OH, not with OKW. Still the causes are the same.

1- You should check timing of first flamer (60 muni and the time for the upgrade to kick). That's pretty much standard time and it hasn't changed in years. Around 3:00 u get 60 muni. Micro + been on territory + upgrade pushes it to 3:30. I can paste all games from last tournament and the timings are there.

2- Not really. SU gets 5 units transitioning to a 6th one. OKW gets 3 main lines + 1 SP + another Volk/MG/Kubel at that point.
OH match up with Osstruppen is not necessarily outnumbering on squads but they still trade much more effectively.

3- The playing from behind comes from the current OH meta mostly.
The OKW vs SU is balanced favouring SU IMO. Still you expect to lose territory when spending on tech at that timing, plus the faster LV OKW can get. The only thing is that it's not as drastic as OH and OKW is much harder to transition if they go mechanized.


1. i checked some of my replays (mixed automatch and tourney) and the flamer timing was anything between 2:40 and 4:05, which doesnt say alot about the usual game obviously but you can get the flamer significantly faster than 3:30 when you rush munitions (which i usually do as soviets)

2. what i meant was that soviets reach their full t0 army with either 4cons+ce or 3cons+2ce earlier than any other army completes their t0/t1 army, combined with a flamer push soviets should get good portion of the map and harras their opponents income. excluding very aggresive early game play like 221/ostruppen

3. nothing to add, youre basically right. of course soviets plays from behind against ostruppen but i wouldnt set that sitiation as their normal early game situation, even tho ostruppen is played a ton

24 Sep 2020, 21:39 PM
#177
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2



1. i checked some of my replays (mixed automatch and tourney) and the flamer timing was anything between 2:40 and 4:05, which doesnt say alot about the usual game obviously but you can get the flamer significantly faster than 3:30 when you rush munitions (which i usually do as soviets)

2. what i meant was that soviets reach their full t0 army with either 4cons+ce or 3cons+2ce earlier than any other army completes their t0/t1 army, combined with a flamer push soviets should get good portion of the map and harras their opponents income. excluding very aggresive early game play like 221/ostruppen

3. nothing to add, youre basically right. of course soviets plays from behind against ostruppen but i wouldnt set that sitiation as their normal early game situation, even tho ostruppen is played a ton



The 4 con timing push is underrated even against osttruppen. There's a short window during OH T2 tech and PG build time where you're actually ahead. Ofc if you push and all your cons are damaged PG is gonna clean up the field but it's a small powerspike nonetheless.
25 Sep 2020, 18:15 PM
#178
avatar of Sully

Posts: 390 | Subs: 2

For the record I agree 100% with the points being made by Gia and CN.

That being said, this thread is exhibit A) as to why the "discussions" on this forum are a total joke.

Any thought out argument from people who play this game at a decently high level get completely drowned out by others who are either ranked so poorly they are too embarrassed to show their playercards or don't even play the damn game.

It's mind boggling to me how Soviets have gotten a free pass to have blatantly OP units/abilities over the years while all other factions have swung wildly between UP and OP.
25 Sep 2020, 18:23 PM
#179
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2020, 18:15 PMSully


It's mind boggling to me how Soviets have gotten a free pass to have blatantly OP units/abilities over the years while all other factions have swung wildly between UP and OP.


maybe thats because the soviets are performing poorly based on automatch stats... and are highly reliant on a single OP unit (or a certain commander) to carry their nonexistent midgame infantry play
25 Sep 2020, 19:17 PM
#180
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3459 | Subs: 1

OKW and Soviet suffer the same issue, fighting around which one is the weakest doesn't make any sense at all.

They both have a too important snowball scenario between their mainline infantry and light vehicle. But
If you nerf the T70 then Soviet are doomed.
If you buff volks then OKW will roll over USF and Soviet with the luch. We already saw that scenario.

Even Brit are on a similar situation, Tommies are good because they lack an LV to fight infantry. Nerfing them not only weaken the faction at a time being during the game but for all the game because they're too important. USF suffered the issue with RMs until they revamped the faction.



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