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Why Soviets are OP

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24 Sep 2020, 08:53 AM
#121
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 08:50 AMVipper

that is a bad design decision.


Probably, I haven't thought as much about the DP-28 as I have the PPSh's, and honestly I don't prefer it since LMG's are already done by 2 of 5 factions. It just peeves me that the Soviet Army's portrayal is just so strange: all Conscripts and Convicts, very few SMG's or LMG's. The DP-28 is a pretty poor excuse for an LMG so I thought 1 probably wouldn't be too bad, but at the same time the Soviets are designed to suck at ranged combat, so it can have unpredictable consequences allowing them to use a ranged weapon. I still prefer the PPSh as a mainline upgrade because they would be the only faction to get an SMG on mainline, as opposed to LMG (OST, UKF) or AR (OKW, USF).

This post is kind of rambly but I'm very tired, sorry. ;)
24 Sep 2020, 08:54 AM
#122
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2



Then the faction is not OP (though u mention the intent of the title is to bring up discussion) but rather poorly designed.

SU vs OKW match up been skewed (in your opinion) would mostly be attributed to OKW problems rather than needing SU changes (IMO)
SU vs OH match up atm, i don't think there's a huge uphill battle till we talking about games making it pass the 25/30 min mark and Soviets manage to get on equal footing and have everything upgraded without losing vet on their units. At that point i don't think it's imba but rather than Soviets have an easier execution.

What i found amusing is that you are suggesting nerfs towards Soviets at the key moments they are at their weakest furthering increasing the problem.



I'm sure you realise the problem in logic behind this.


Well see it this way, there's a universal consensus that osttruppen and 5men are too strong. However if you fix these you gotta adress some of the Soviet Late game issues too. The entire reason I made this thread (apart from being bored) was that the soviet issues are rarely talked about because they get overshadowed by the early mid wehrmach powerspike.
24 Sep 2020, 08:55 AM
#123
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


  • Regular Army: Add 1 DP-28 to every Conscript Squad

1 DP has almost half the DPS of an LMG-42... it probably has to be a higher performance DP variant with more DPS


  • Shock Army: Add 2-3 PPSh to every Conscript Squad


3 ppsh is very bad for a unit with bolt action rifles as its antisynergy for its performance...and volks also get 5 MP-40s for their upgrade soo to make it fair id prolly give em 5 or maybe 6 PPSH to balance it out
24 Sep 2020, 08:58 AM
#124
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 08:54 AMGiaA


Well see it this way, there's a universal consensus that osttruppen and 5men are too strong. However if you fix these you gotta adress some of the Soviet Late game issues too. The entire reason I made this thread (apart from being bored) was that the soviet issues are rarely talked about because they get overshadowed by the early mid wehrmach powerspike.


the T-70 and maybe the zis are the only things in the soviet lategame arsenal that needs a tweak... the zis could do with a small price increase while the T-70 can do with decreased anti infantry lethality...
24 Sep 2020, 09:02 AM
#125
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 19:03 PMVonIvan
Why Soviets Brits are OP

Other than 6 man support weapons soviets are a generally rounded faction with strong late game that relies on superior numbers or tank destroyers/kv-2.


I mean I could have made a thread about brits being op but that would just be preaching to the choir. I loathe brits as much as the next person. You actually think Soviets rely on tank destroyers? I mean get that you're not much of an ATGun guy but I feel like Su76 or Su85 play much less of a role than double zis in 1v1.
24 Sep 2020, 09:05 AM
#126
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 09:02 AMGiaA


I mean I could have made a thread about brits being op but that would just be preaching to the choir.


the difference is the soviets and OKW are both the worst factions in the meta atm while the brits are one of the best... if you struggle as okw then the solution isnt to nerf the soviets but to buff OKW and the soviets...
24 Sep 2020, 09:31 AM
#127
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13097 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 08:55 AMgbem

1 DP has almost half the DPS of an LMG-42... it probably has to be a higher performance DP variant with more DPS
...

Problem is design not performance 6 men conscript with lmg vs lmg Grenadier would be a stand off firing at max range in cover since no squad would have a reason to close in.
24 Sep 2020, 09:56 AM
#128
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 08:54 AMGiaA


Well see it this way, there's a universal consensus that osttruppen and 5men are too strong. However if you fix these you gotta adress some of the Soviet Late game issues too. The entire reason I made this thread (apart from being bored) was that the soviet issues are rarely talked about because they get overshadowed by the early mid wehrmach powerspike.


Rarely talked about ?

People complain about ram, Zis gun barrage and T70 non stop. If you think the KV2 is OP on certain maps open a thread about the KV2. Same with KV1 or T85s.
A quarter of the points you make feels like less than Soviets OP, rather than OKW UP.

I think the faction is almost in a healthy spot late game which only requires small adjustments on vet, ability functionality or cost efficiency to be perfect.

If you want, i can make a list but most of the things to be changed can only be applied once a proper early/mid game tech revision is done to the faction so the faction is not "killed" in 1v1.
24 Sep 2020, 09:59 AM
#129
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2241

there is a good reason why cons have no nondoc weapon upgrade:
this is an utily squad with orrah, at nades, flame nades, merge, sandbags, mines, 6(even 7!!) models, super cheap
-> and this is their NONDOC abiltys!


imagine this squad get nondoc ppsh etc. it would be hilarious

24 Sep 2020, 10:03 AM
#130
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13097 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 09:05 AMgbem


the difference is the soviets and OKW are both the worst factions in the meta atm while the brits are one of the best... if you struggle as okw then the solution isnt to nerf the soviets but to buff OKW and the soviets...

Nope that leads to power creep.
24 Sep 2020, 10:04 AM
#131
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

there is a good reason why cons have no nondoc weapon upgrade:
this is an utily squad with orrah, at nades, flame nades, merge, sandbags, mines, 6(even 7!!) models, super cheap
-> and this is their NONDOC abiltys!


imagine this squad get nondoc ppsh etc. it would be hilarious



soo lets just keep the soviets as one of the worst factions in the game along with okw... totally a good idea for balance....

btw conscript PPSH is terrible and isnt even half as used as SVT conscripts... 3x ppsh for 60 muni is a joke compared to 5x MP-40 for volks or 6x ppsh for penals... also grens have comparable (albeit a bit less) utility youve stated soo your argument doesnt work..

another important thing to note is that their utility is paid for through individual side grades like mollys and AT nades... grens and volks get grenades through tech progression while USF gets both RE smoke and grenades through a single sidegrade...

lastly youre notorious for being a biased troll soo i doubt your opinion matters...

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 10:03 AMVipper

Nope that leads to power creep.


nerfing 3 factions to put them inline with the two worst factions seems like a terrible idea... better to just buff sov and okw

also isnt power creep caused by the introduction of new things to a faction as opposed to buffing an underpowered faction?
24 Sep 2020, 11:51 AM
#134
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 10:59 AMKatitof

You do realize that 7th man is basically weapon upgrade for cons in the flavor of the faction?


not too good of a weapon upgrade... a 7th mosin nagant has 1/3rd the dps of a DP-28 and 1/5th the DPS of an LMG-42... sure it increases HP by a bit but the discrepancy is phenomenal...
24 Sep 2020, 11:55 AM
#135
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 11:51 AMgbem


not too good of a weapon upgrade... a 7th mosin nagant has 1/3rd the dps of a DP-28 and 1/5th the DPS of an LMG-42... sure it increases HP by a bit but the discrepancy is phenomenal...

Upgrade increases DPS for remaining 6 models as well you know.
24 Sep 2020, 11:55 AM
#136
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 11:55 AMKatitof

Upgrade increases DPS for remaining 6 models as well you know.


not anymore... the 30% dps buff was removed

- Reload cover bonus from the Mobilize Reserves has been removed.
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