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russian armor

Why Soviets are OP

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23 Sep 2020, 12:06 PM
#41
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17619 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 11:39 AMGiaA


Penetration is unreliable and not a real argument.

achpawel lives stronk in you

You can't expect a p4 to bounce ZIS guns unless you wanna take a massive gamble. T34/76 does the same thing for way less fuel cost. No one with a good understanding of the game has disagreed with me so far. All I've seen is forum warriors bringing up arguments that are compeltely detached from reality.

You actually can.
With a very specific chance depending on few variables.
Up to you if you take that chance or not, but you have a chance.
You do not have the same luxury with T34.

Why do you think players are doing dives and chases?
They have assessed their chances based on opponents unit composition, last known positioning and stats and either go for it or not.
23 Sep 2020, 12:07 PM
#42
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 12:06 PMKatitof
achpawel lives stronk in GiaA


sorry i dont understand forum warrior references.
23 Sep 2020, 12:09 PM
#43
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17619 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 12:07 PMGiaA

sorry i dont understand forum warrior references.


Don't worry, I never expected you to.
You clearly do not understand actual stats or basics of balance, I didn't even dreamt you'd understand such meta reference.
23 Sep 2020, 12:10 PM
#44
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 12:04 PMgbem


soo if penetration is soo useless along with armor in your eyes then id love for axis tanks to have 0 penetration and armor... after all penetration and armor is just a useless stat and they will do fine without it...


It's funny how people who have no idea about the game have ruined this forum by making everything about Axis fanboys vs Allied fanboys.
23 Sep 2020, 12:11 PM
#45
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 12:10 PMGiaA


It's funny how people who have no idea about the game have ruined this forum by making everything about Axis fanboys vs Allies fanboys.


the only one here who has no idea what hes saying is the one saying penetration and armor is useless...
23 Sep 2020, 12:11 PM
#46
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 12:09 PMKatitof


Don't worry, I never expected you to.
You clearly do not understand actual stats or basics of balance, I didn't even dreamt you'd understand such meta reference.


Yea, sorry I was busy actually playing the game we're talking about and gaining a good grasp of its mechanics.
23 Sep 2020, 12:12 PM
#47
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 12:11 PMgbem


the only one here who has no idea what hes saying is the one saying penetration and armor is useless...


Did I say they are useless? all I said was that in the context of comparing medium tanks they are not really relevant.
23 Sep 2020, 12:12 PM
#48
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2242

Zis is OP as fuck since the barrage is super cheap, shells come super fast, has really good wiping chance, has nearly no cool down, and has very wide range...on a 6 models teamweapon which is even an AT gun.

you retreat teamweapons, blobbs and armor with it.
23 Sep 2020, 12:13 PM
#49
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17619 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 12:10 PMGiaA


It's funny how people who have no idea about the game have ruined this forum by making everything about Axis fanboys vs Allied fanboys.

Its funny how someone who have made "faction OP" with a total of zero factual arguments based on stats or replays, using "because I said so" and at best anecdotal "evidence" has the audacity to post such a line unironically in a thread that is nothing else then "I have no idea how to play vs soviets, I don't understand the faction and no, I will not even attempt to learn, so don't bother explaining it to me".
23 Sep 2020, 12:14 PM
#50
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 12:12 PMGiaA


Did I say they are useless? all I said was that in the context of comparing medium tanks they are not really relevant.


jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 12:12 PMGiaA

Penetration is unreliable and not a real argument.
23 Sep 2020, 12:16 PM
#51
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 12:13 PMKatitof

Its funny how someone who have made "faction OP" with a total of zero factual arguments based on stats or replays, using "because I said so" and at best anecdotal "evidence" has the audacity to post such a line unironically in a thread that is nothing else then "I have no idea how to play vs soviets, I don't understand the faction and no, I will not even attempt to learn, so don't bother explaining it to me".


What's a factual argument in your mind? You're the one debating as if you actually played the game which you don't. You wouldn't win 1 out of 100 games against me and as I said I'm not a good player :)
23 Sep 2020, 12:19 PM
#52
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 12:14 PMgbem




Yep, precisely. Why are you repeating what I said?
23 Sep 2020, 12:20 PM
#53
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 12:19 PMGiaA


Yep, precisely. Why are you repeating what I said?


you dismissed it as not a real argument... soo if penetration isnt a real argument then lets just give all axis tanks 0 penetration and armor and see how irrelevant it is....
23 Sep 2020, 12:23 PM
#54
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 12:20 PMgbem


you dismissed it as not a real argument... soo if penetration isnt a real argument then lets just give all axis tanks 0 penetration and armor and see how irrelevant it is....


It's not a good argument when comparing mediums. It is a highly relevant argument when talking super heavies.
23 Sep 2020, 12:31 PM
#55
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281

higher armor and/or pen makes a tank more valuably over the long game but you cant rely on it in a single engagement where you always have to assume the worst case (that your tank gets penned everytime)

but back to the topic, the p4 vs t34/76 matchup isnt really the point of this thread, isnt it?

@GiaA what would you actually nerf and how would you compensate for that?
23 Sep 2020, 12:37 PM
#56
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2242

it is correct to say armor is useless ...for example in late game, where almost every AT platform on the field will penetrate a p4 at 95%...even on long range. Even panthers have the same issue, when all this super duber TDs and AT guns running around and have no trouble to penetrate a panther every shot.
In this time armor is weak. target size would help, so you cant hit a full speed panther/p4 every time.
23 Sep 2020, 12:37 PM
#57
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17619 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 12:16 PMGiaA


What's a factual argument in your mind?

Precisely.


Where are factual arguments here?
Its just a bunch of opinions from a player who, from this list here, seems to struggle vs hard AI.

You are incapable or unable of producing a single argument that would be based on facts.
You provided no stats, you provided no interactions that you consider "op", you provided no replays.

You said "IZ OP CUZ I SAYZ SO, SO IZ OP" and put that on a loop and expect anyone except ullumulu or achpawel to agree with you?
23 Sep 2020, 13:00 PM
#58
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

higher armor and/or pen makes a tank more valuably over the long game but you cant rely on it in a single engagement where you always have to assume the worst case (that your tank gets penned everytime)

but back to the topic, the p4 vs t34/76 matchup isnt really the point of this thread, isnt it?

@GiaA what would you actually nerf and how would you compensate for that?


1. Remove all Mainline Inf sandbags across the board.
2. Increase mine cost to 40. (They'd still be used i guarantee it)
3. Decrease Anti Infantry Dps on t70, make the vision ability a temporary ability with a small ammo cost instead of toggle, slightly decrease t70 cost to 60-65
4. Make ZIS Barrage Vet ability and increase cooldown
5. Make Trip wire flares vision only maybe decrease price to 5.
6. Rebalance the entire pop cap system, it's one of the most unbalanced parts of the game imo
7. Ideally I'd remove 7men con upgrade but I do understand that this would probably require giving penals a more prominent role or makin shocks/guards stock

In terms of compensation?

1. Buff maxim suppression slightly. I feel like this unit is always either op or up with no in between depending on how much suppression it causes. Would be hard to find the sweet spot
2. Nerf Ostttruppen, I don't care how but make them less cost efficient vs cons
3. Nerf 5men Grens for obvious reasons although they don't affect OH vs Sov that much
4. Nerf PG Vet 2 and 3
5. Nerf FHT Damage
6. Nerf Stuka AT Strafe (should be nerfed into the ground just like Soviet loiter imo, if loiters can't be removed they need to at least be weakened)
7. Remove Puma Smoke
8. Nerf Flak HT damage, should be mainly a suppression tool imo and could quickly become op with stronger okw late game
9. Make all healing AOE like the US ambulance, as you've mentioned this would mainly benefit soviets, getting heal after big infantry pushes should be a sensible choice instead of making you sit in base for a minute
10. Remove the Stormtrooper wipe ability

Edit: Imagining cons without sandbags makes me realize how realiant they are on them. Which kinda supports the point I made earlier. Honestly without sandbags and no changes to soviet elite infantry I'd be down to moving 7men to t3 as an experiment. However I'd remove the reinforce cost decrease because T3 arrives early enough to actually make it significant.

23 Sep 2020, 13:08 PM
#59
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 498

Heh, I can make a similar list for OKW from Soviet viewpoint. :P

1. Sturmpios - Insanely strong vs Soviets because it doesnt have early cqc squad
2. Sandbags - Volks behind sandbags are the most cost efficient unit in the game, you need at least two close range infantry squads to dislodge them
3. Fast repair - OKW needs a single enginner squad and also has repairs at base while soviets need 2-3 enginner squads to be effective, taking up pop cap
4. Stuka - straight out broken, distance doesn't affect scatter
5. PzII and Puma - Super reliable Anti Infantry and Anti Vehicle combo, very high wipe potential, Puma has smoke too, only weakness is price
6. Map hack - the kübel's vet1 and the uhu's ability shuts down any flanking attempt
7. Pop Cap - 100 Pop OKW army straight up beats 100 pop Soviet army, OKW has far better units
8. PzIV - insanely strong all rounder
9. King Tiger - Wipe machine, excellent range and strong AT, unbeatable on certain maps
10. ISG - more range than regular mortar thus hardly counterable, op
11. Panther - best tank hunter tank
12. Raketen - can retreat, obviously op
13. Pfusiliers - even stronger than volks late game, has a better snare ability and can launch flares, shuts down any vehicle play
14. Obers - just unbeatable, at long range their lmg, at close range their nade shreds infantry

(for those who don't get it I'm just being sarcastic :P )

((jokes aside, I'm not really seeing this thread getting anywhere, lock maybe?))
23 Sep 2020, 13:25 PM
#60
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 10:38 AMgbem

uhh why? tommies can do 90% of what cons can do except snare and oorah in exchange for being able to bully everything except a rifle squad...



soo the manpower cost reduction of 7 man is completely insignificant with both of them being -2 mp



is it a crime for the soviets to have a good machinegun?



then 7 man being no brainer isnt exactly a soviet strength since literally everyone else gets no brainer upgrades...


Once again, my sniper argument should be self evident to anyone who plays the game. But let me explain it: The sniper is not efficient enough vs Cons because one kill is worth way less.

The manpower reduction for 7men cons is indeed insignificant and I never claimed otherwise.
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