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Should soviet Combat E ngineers be buffed?

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27 Mar 2020, 17:49 PM
#41
avatar of suora

Posts: 26

Combat engineers are fine, and giving them pioneer level SMGs would be a nerf.

Demolition charges were nerfed out of the game, and could probably be 15 munis cheaper to encourage using them against bunkers and OKW structures.

Teller mines are cheesy but could maybe be improved by making them immobilise light tanks and taking them to 10% health instead of one-shotting them. Then you'd need at least a faust to finish it off.
27 Mar 2020, 17:50 PM
#42
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2754

Also don't do strawman arguments with "why does faction X have that but Y does not". It does not lead anywhere and is usually quite bullshit.


I’m done.

CreativeName you try explaining to him.
27 Mar 2020, 17:52 PM
#43
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1087

Helmet Upgrade, 5 munitions.
Grants Combat Engineers helmets.

+1
27 Mar 2020, 18:01 PM
#44
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 180

The only change that should be done for Combat Engineers (and other Engineers as well such as Pioneers) is a vet rework. The repair bonus's from vet should be added as a separate upgrade.

(Minesweeper does increase Repair Speed however bleeding Pioneers/Combat Engineers to try to get them leveled up just so it doesn't take forever to repair later on is not exactly fun)

27 Mar 2020, 18:14 PM
#45
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2449 | Subs: 1

If this is turning into a demo discussion I agree changes would be nice. Cap model deaths at 3 per squad and let it be invisible again
This results in it being cost ineffective against single units but valuable againt blobs its a win win.


Want to make sure this change doesn't get missed in the middle of my ranting. I like it a lot but you could probably still wipe squads if you combined it with regular mine
27 Mar 2020, 18:24 PM
#46
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4079 | Subs: 1



Want to make sure this change doesn't get missed in the middle of my ranting. I like it a lot but you could probably still wipe squads if you combined it with regular mine

i think that wouldnt be unreasonable, it would then take much longer to set and be more likely to be triggered when you dont want it to. the current soviet are a lot more muni heavy than the old ones that could afford many demos a game so i think 100 mu in the live soviet wouldn't be worth MAYBE getting a wipe.
27 Mar 2020, 19:17 PM
#47
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 586



I know, but you could cheese it heavily if you wanted. The only way to get rid of mun in the early game is mines, PRTS upgrades (only T1) or AT grenades for snares as well as ZiS barrages (only T2). If you go a bit easy on this you surely can get a couple of demos out until the mid game, especially in larger modes.
But for SOV, their core gameplay does not change much if they invest mun early on into their infantry or not. OST needs to upgrade their med bunker and start upgrading their Grens to stay competitive. Cons and Penals don't. So if you're willing to delay your mobilized reserves upgrade for a bit, there is enough mun for demos.


True but now its a choice you make with some concequences unlike before.
27 Mar 2020, 19:24 PM
#48
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1087

Combat Engineers are too cheap. It makes them slightly imbalanced. Their performance and abilities don't justify 30 manpower bonus compared to other engineer squads. Very simple and not much to add.
27 Mar 2020, 20:28 PM
#49
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 586

Combat Engineers are too cheap. It makes them slightly imbalanced. Their performance and abilities don't justify 30 manpower bonus compared to other engineer squads. Very simple and not much to add.


No bonus sight. No 5th man with vet or upgrade. No stun nades or at weapon upgrade. No amazing dps at any range. 1 completely usseles ability nerfed out of the game.

170 mp is just fine considering the only unique thing about them is the demo wich is usseles atm.
27 Mar 2020, 20:54 PM
#50
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

CE's are completely fine. They don't need a buff or a nerf. They're cheap, have decent utility, and can have good synergy when placed in a ScoutCar with a flamer. They're also surprisingly decent with a flamer, once they get some vet.

I'd argue that if every squad should be able to detect demo charges, than the detection radius should be lowered. They should detect it approximately at the point were they get the outer edges of the AoE damage. So no wipe if a player is careful and pulls back, but they should get damaged.


Firstly, the detection radius should never match the AoE radius, as this removes any ability for counter-play. I agree that the detection range should be smaller, but it needs to be slightly (+2?) larger than the AoE, to allow for the "attacking" player to back away on detection, while accounting for units that are sometimes unresponsive. Note, however, that any detection radius changes should also apply to other demos, including the goliath when it's not moving.

Secondly, the only way this would make sense, is if detected demos showed up like normal units - i.e. with a red highlight through buildings and a "unit" icon. Right now, even once detected, they can be incredibly hard to see on some terrain, and they can be placed behind stuff, so that they can't be seen from the default camera view.

Really, demos should just become a (slightly) cheaper, non-mobile, non-doc goliath.
27 Mar 2020, 21:03 PM
#51
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 198



You really want more of this? Really?

Same guy also went triple Katy on me to boot.
27 Mar 2020, 21:12 PM
#52
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 342

If this is turning into a demo discussion I agree changes would be nice. Cap model deaths at 3 per squad and let it be invisible again
This results in it being cost ineffective against single units but valuable againt blobs its a win win.


I like this idea!
27 Mar 2020, 22:54 PM
#53
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15423 | Subs: 7



You really want more of this? Really?

Same guy also went triple Katy on me to boot.


Is it rank 9000 tier game?
Because that's exceptionally bad even for 4v4 standards.
28 Mar 2020, 09:56 AM
#54
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 814

Rifles > Suicide range SMGs


But pios can beat rifle squad cqb

CE Rifles are still con rifles so you'll lose to volks every range
28 Mar 2020, 10:43 AM
#55
avatar of suora

Posts: 26



But pios can beat rifle squad cqb

CE Rifles are still con rifles so you'll lose to volks every range


But in practice pioneers aren't very combat effective because they take too much damage while closing in. Even combat engineers beat them if microed properly.
28 Mar 2020, 11:01 AM
#56
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15423 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2020, 10:43 AMsuora


But in practice pioneers aren't very combat effective because they take too much damage while closing in. Even combat engineers beat them if microed properly.

There is no situation other then pios staying always at long range or going up against CEs with flamers while holding sweeper at which they would lose to CEs.
28 Mar 2020, 11:12 AM
#57
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 198

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Mar 2020, 22:54 PMKatitof


Is it rank 9000 tier game?
Because that's exceptionally bad even for 4v4 standards.


1300-1500 expanded to who knows what brackets.
28 Mar 2020, 11:18 AM
#58
avatar of suora

Posts: 26

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2020, 11:01 AMKatitof

There is no situation other then pios staying always at long range or going up against CEs with flamers while holding sweeper at which they would lose to CEs.


The first minutes of the game are where CE vs pio fights are the most likely to happen, and that's where CEs can fight pios from a long range while they're trying to capture a point. But yeah, it's not something that happens more than once or twice in a game.

Combat engineers are surprisingly good at that, and with cover they can potentially even stop volksgrenadiers from capping their fuel. Pioneers can't realistically do the same because they'll get gunned down before they get to their optimal range.
28 Mar 2020, 11:41 AM
#59
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1087



No bonus sight. No 5th man with vet or upgrade. No stun nades or at weapon upgrade. No amazing dps at any range. 1 completely usseles ability nerfed out of the game.

170 mp is just fine considering the only unique thing about them is the demo wich is usseles atm.


What are your comparisons based on? You shouldn't compare 170mp combat engineers to 300mp OKW sturmpios (I'm not a fan of sturmpios but still the comparison is crazy). USF rear echelons never fight against them (but it is probably true that the 5th man is too much, still even if they fought each other I feel that combat engineers would win). Stun grenade is on sturmpios but it is doctrine tied so why are you writing about it? Why do you expect amazing dps from an engineer unit? They have many more useful abilities: they construct buildings, lay mines, sweep from mines, lay barbed wire, can be upgraded with flamer (and here is where their dps shine), they lay demo charges, and probably most importantly, they repair vehicles. On top of that, if you put them behind cover, or in a building, they will stop grens from advancing or even volks - so mainline infantry units. Once they get a flamer and are supported by merging conscripts they can be pretty much unstoppable. You can also put they into a halftrack and clear buildings. Once again, they are too cheap and add up to the result of the Soviets being the dominant faction at the moment.
28 Mar 2020, 12:17 PM
#60
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2754

But pios can beat rifle squad cqb


If you show up at range 0 and start the fight there, sure. If you start the fight from range 10 or more, you get slaughtered with ease.

CEs can poke at enemy Pioneers/Spios from range which is invaluable. An early model snipe on an Spio at the start of the game can have big consequences on the first engagement. CEs also come with a flamethrower stock and are cheap, meaning it's easy to sweep for mines. Try losing an Spio and see how well you do with mine spam.
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