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Should soviet Combat E ngineers be buffed?

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29 Mar 2020, 01:00 AM
#81
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2413 | Subs: 1

Pios and CEs should get a received accuracy bonus with vet. Idk why they don't, doesn't need to be that large either. Like -10/15% or so at vet 2
29 Mar 2020, 02:47 AM
#82
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 765

Pios and CEs should get a received accuracy bonus with vet. Idk why they don't, doesn't need to be that large either. Like -10/15% or so at vet 2


Both their vet requirements could use a look at too tbh. They should have same vet requirements as rear echelons imo (these are lower for some reason, possibly since pios/ce get better repair with vet).

I'd also like cooldown equalized to -20% (same as most regular infantry) to make most use of their flamethrowers. It shouldn't be that a regular infantry squad is better with a specialized engineer weapon like a flamethrower than the engies themselves.
29 Mar 2020, 03:30 AM
#83
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 725

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2020, 10:43 AMsuora


But in practice pioneers aren't very combat effective because they take too much damage while closing in. Even combat engineers beat them if microed properly.


CEs and pios are both subpar combat units nowhere near their infantry counterparts, but pios are not suicidal pushovers.

Like Royal engineers with a bit of micro hiding behind sight blockers you can jump a mainline squad and win in cqb. Very useful early game.

Not calling for crazy buffs, and obviously pios are not cqb specialists that can close in like pgrens can. All engies are in a pretty OK place. But I do feel they all drop a bit fast at vet 3, bar sturms that are beasts late game.
29 Mar 2020, 04:08 AM
#84
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186

Playing around in cheat mod reveals:

4 gren squads will closely beat 5 charging pioneer squads
3 volksgren squads will easily beat two sturmpioneer sqauds

3 CE squads will easily beat two conscript squads. Averages to about 5-6 CE models remaining.

The only reason you build conscripts over CE is better veterancy bonuses, sandbags, slightly easier micro, and a very small manpower efficiency.

You can easily use CE as mainline infantry though if you so desire. Flamethrowers and mines more than compensate for worse combat veterancy, and once you get to t3 vehicles, which CE fix, are the primary fighting unit.

IMO the only reason CE haven't been nerfed already is because of a gentleman's agreement. Everyone knows unconsciously they're OP, but the game would lose all fun if you actually laid down the 40-50 mines per game soviets can afford.
29 Mar 2020, 04:21 AM
#85
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 400

My personal favorite is SVT wielding peoples army combat engineers...
29 Mar 2020, 10:52 AM
#86
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8287 | Subs: 1

Went it comes to combat stats CE have the same DPS as conscripts with better target size and at cheaper price.

Giving them PPsh with pio stat would actually be nerf to them.

They are fine.
29 Mar 2020, 11:21 AM
#87
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 983

Reply to: Katitof, thedarkarmadillo

They become too cheap lategame when you need to use them to repair. They are also too cheap early game. Both these things give Soviets manpower advantage.
I don't understand how you can say that their stats are worse compared to pios, which are 200mp. They are just different - not worse. The mines they have are best/most useful mines imo.
29 Mar 2020, 12:32 PM
#88
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3960 | Subs: 1

Reply to: Katitof, thedarkarmadillo

They become too cheap lategame when you need to use them to repair. They are also too cheap early game. Both these things give Soviets manpower advantage.
I don't understand how you can say that their stats are worse compared to pios, which are 200mp. They are just different - not worse. The mines they have are best/most useful mines imo.

No, they are objectively worse. Their only redeeming quality is that they are cheap. How are they worse you ask? Do they have bonus sight like pios?
Can they build bunkers that can lock down territory or keep units on the front healed? Reinforced? Can they heal anything at all? Do they even have sand bags?
Aside from that they have the same wire as pios, the same mimes as sturms and a demo that has been all but removed from the game. They are cheap because they are not worth more.
29 Mar 2020, 13:19 PM
#89
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 983


No, they are objectively worse. Their only redeeming quality is that they are cheap. How are they worse you ask? Do they have bonus sight like pios?
Can they build bunkers that can lock down territory or keep units on the front healed? Reinforced? Can they heal anything at all? Do they even have sand bags?
Aside from that they have the same wire as pios, the same mimes as sturms and a demo that has been all but removed from the game. They are cheap because they are not worth more.

Imho it is better to have a cheaper squad that repairs as quickly as other pios lategame than a more expensive one. It is also better to have more cheaper squads early game than fewer more expensive squads that are still incapable of combat (sturmpios aside). All the utilities of other pios mean very little here. Their basic and most important functions are the same. You shouldn't compare CE to sturmpios as the price difference is jus enormous. Pios (ost) aren't better - they are just different.
29 Mar 2020, 13:58 PM
#90
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15216 | Subs: 7


Imho it is better to have a cheaper squad that repairs as quickly as other pios lategame than a more expensive one. It is also better to have more cheaper squads early game than fewer more expensive squads that are still incapable of combat (sturmpios aside). All the utilities of other pios mean very little here. Their basic and most important functions are the same. You shouldn't compare CE to sturmpios as the price difference is jus enormous. Pios (ost) aren't better - they are just different.

If repairs are your priority, you have a doctrine for that.

You're fighting windmills here and not even a single player, no matter how bad he is agrees with you.
Its time to stop, because you're dragging it for the sake of arguing as nothing'll come out of it.

And yes, pios ARE better.
Much higher DPS at effective range and increased sight alone makes them better.

In fact, pios might be THE best engineers in the whole game, thanks to the sight alone, making them the ultimate infantry to recrew weapons, especially HMGs.
29 Mar 2020, 14:20 PM
#91
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8287 | Subs: 1

Ro.E are easily the far better than Pioneer.

AT grenade and cover destruction alone bring above other engineer squads.

C.E. are a very cost efficient engineer unit and are fine.
29 Mar 2020, 14:43 PM
#92
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 988 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2020, 14:20 PMVipper
Ro.E are easily the far better than Pioneer.

AT grenade and cover destruction alone bring above other engineer squads.

C.E. are a very cost efficient engineer unit and are fine.


I would not count the AT grenade. They only have it because UKF does not get snare on the mainlines. It's more of a patchwork fix for the faction than an actual utility on the unit.
29 Mar 2020, 14:50 PM
#93
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8287 | Subs: 1



I would not count the AT grenade. They only have it because UKF does not get snare on the mainlines. It's more of a patchwork fix for the faction than an actual utility on the unit.

Well they still have it.

And clearing shot blocker is an op ability.

In any case WFA can get AT weapons on their engineer and some of them can get LMG so I doubt that pioneer are "best engineer unit in the whole game".

Pioneer are extremely difficult to gain any veterancy past 2 min mark.
29 Mar 2020, 15:00 PM
#94
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 988 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2020, 14:50 PMVipper

Well they still have it.

And clearing shot blocker is an op ability.

In any case WFA can get AT weapons on their engineer and some of them can get LMG so I doubt that pioneer are "best engineer unit in the whole game".

Pioneer are extremely difficult to gain any veterancy past 2 min mark.


I do not doubt that they are better. Although I'd say their biggest asset it that they profit from the 5 man upgrade. Just the AT nade was a bit off. UKF can get weapon on they engineers, but usually this upgrade comes rather late in the game, as well as the Anvil LMG upgrade. OST can get a flame thrower early on.
However they also cost more. 250 MP if I recall correctly vs 200 MP of the pioneer. So yes, they are better, but not without drawbacks.
29 Mar 2020, 15:03 PM
#95
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8287 | Subs: 1



I do not doubt that they are better. Although I'd say their biggest asset it that they profit from the 5 man upgrade. Just the AT nade was a bit off. UKF can get weapon on they engineers, but usually this upgrade comes rather late in the game, as well as the Anvil LMG upgrade. OST can get a flame thrower early on.
However they also cost more. 250 MP if I recall correctly vs 200 MP of the pioneer. So yes, they are better, but not without drawbacks.

cost 210
29 Mar 2020, 15:12 PM
#96
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162

lol this thread.

CE are better than Ostheers' Pios. They are cheaper and are better with flamer, because of their weapon-profile, they are still usefull in late-game, while Pios get obsolete after min 10 (beside rep. + building something)

Ostheer Pios can build Bunker, Grens and Osttruppen can built them as well.

29 Mar 2020, 15:20 PM
#97
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 983

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2020, 13:58 PMKatitof

If repairs are your priority, you have a doctrine for that.

That is irrelevant. The priority is balance. Soviet engineers are too cheap and it creates manpower imbalance mostly at later stages of the game when repair units need to be replaced or you have to quickly build squads for sidecappig.
jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2020, 13:58 PMKatitof

You're fighting windmills here and not even a single player, no matter how bad he is agrees with you.
Its time to stop, because you're dragging it for the sake of arguing as nothing'll come out of it

I'm a bit more optimistic here. I feel there are people who see that Soviets are the best atm. The only problem imo is that changes/discussion often address only combat stats. They sometimes lack required depth to solve problems.
jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2020, 13:58 PMKatitof

And yes, pios ARE better.
Much higher DPS at effective range and increased sight alone makes them better.

DPS at a range when they have to be very close is not too good for a fragile unit. It is better for a fragile unit to be further away from your opponents and have their optimal range there. The sight is nice to have but a cheaper price is better.
jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2020, 13:58 PMKatitof

In fact, pios might be THE best engineers in the whole game, thanks to the sight alone, making them the ultimate infantry to recrew weapons, especially HMGs.

If the utility of a unit is based on the fact that it can recrew stuff. God bless You. A stronger, more durable unit would be better. Pios are very squishy and the fact the have to close in to be effective means they are much more likely to die in the proces.
29 Mar 2020, 15:33 PM
#98
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 983

lol this thread.

CE are better than Ostheers' Pios. They are cheaper and are better with flamer, because of their weapon-profile, they are still usefull in late-game, while Pios get obsolete after min 10 (beside rep. + building something)

Ostheer Pios can build Bunker, Grens and Osttruppen can built them as well.


And to make people remeber - a bunker costs 150mp (almost Soviet engineer price) and does nothing. You have to add 60 munitions on top of that. So, a static position for 150mapower and 50 munitions - Thats is another Soviet flamer engineer. A much better investment!
29 Mar 2020, 16:18 PM
#99
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 988 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2020, 15:03 PMVipper

cost 210

I somehow had in mind that UKF pioneers were quite expensive to replace. Well, then it was just my bad memory.
29 Mar 2020, 16:18 PM
#100
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3960 | Subs: 1


And to make people remeber - a bunker costs 150mp (almost Soviet engineer price) and does nothing. You have to add 60 munitions on top of that. So, a static position for 150mapower and 50 munitions - Thats is another Soviet flamer engineer. A much better investment!
depends on what you want to do. If you want to burn fascists then yes the CE flamer is a better option. If you want to keep the soviet out of your territory the bunker is a much better option.
The cost difference is 30mp. This means you need to buy 6 of CE for the difference to amount to anything. 30mp is also 1.5 conscripts models worth of reinforcement. Or maybe 2 seconds of MP income.
And regardless how people down play the things other pois get.. CE still don't get them. How you value all these extras doesn't matter, what matters is they are there (or are not) and it is accounted for in the price.
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