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Should soviet Combat E ngineers be buffed?

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27 Mar 2020, 15:54 PM
#21
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2802

Well then go on and put out some arguments instead of being edgy.


Here’s a great argument:

It used to be like that and everyone hated it, so it changed.
27 Mar 2020, 16:02 PM
#22
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2478 | Subs: 1



Very easy to argue against that.


It really isn't. 90 Muni for a squad wipe = OP, 50 Muni to kill 70 fuel unit totally fine? That's complete nonsense

And heard all the arguments about why I'm wrong

"It's easier to sweep for 1 unit than 4-5 squads"
No it isn't. The unit you're sweeping for is a light tank. There might only be one of them but keeping it waiting for your sweeper wastes precious time on a unit that has a limited window

"You could place it on any capping point getting easy wipes"
No, you need vision. Only way to do that without a spotter is placing it in the center, which can easily be avoided. To this day I cap points on the edge so I don't reveal what type of squad is there

The demo costed more, required manual detonation, and was the only unique thing CEs carried. I think they deserved to get nerfed, but it blows my mind how people can think the teller is fine
27 Mar 2020, 16:12 PM
#23
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2802

It really isn't. 90 Muni for a squad wipe = OP, 50 Muni to kill 70 fuel unit totally fine? That's complete nonsense


What the hell are you talking about?

Invisible demos = quickly place a 100% accuracy B4 shot on the ground and delete whatever you want unless swept and destroyed from afar. This is also stock. The alternative is to go Counterattack doctrine and make a b4, which is easily counterable by direct and indirect fire, not invisible and not accurate, not to mention extremely costly in comparison. The alternative is easily countered without needing a sweeper, unless it’s a Goliath which has audio cues and is doctrinal.

Tellers = basically stronger TM28 mines, they one shot a LV but cannot be detonated by infantry. This is stock and available only to a faction that does not have a light TD for the LV phase stock (Puma) to compensate. The alternative is a TM28/Schu/M6 mine which are either stock or doctrinal (usf) and detonate by inf and deal slightly less damage to LVs, enough to cripple but not kill. Both need a sweeper to counter.

Again, if these two are the same to you then you are 1 billion percent clueless. This is not debateable.
27 Mar 2020, 16:14 PM
#24
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 593


+1 on that point.

They were a bit cheesy when only sweepers could see them, but now they are almost useless. You have to use sight blockers (not the actual LOS in-game system, but that block the view from the camera to the ground) to use them. So only bushes, trees, some buildings. That's even cheesier.

Also someone brought up a comparison to the Teller mine in a discussion months ago to argue demos should only be seen by sweepers as well. Hard to argue against that to be honest with the only exception that OST is not able to spam Tellers, while SOV often have munis floating for demos.


Soviets dont float ammo nearly as much anymore imo. That is less of an issue now. Not being allowed in cap circles would have been enough next to a price increase at the time imo.
27 Mar 2020, 16:21 PM
#25
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4097 | Subs: 1

I'd say CE are pretty mostly fine I think. The change in their rifles really made them reliable support
27 Mar 2020, 16:32 PM
#26
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1096 | Subs: 1



Here’s a great argument:

It used to be like that and everyone hated it, so it changed.

Good point:

I also have a great argument:

Nobody outside uses them anymore. Even at my skill level players are good enough to avoid them in all modes. They are a waste of mun. The only times you can actually use them is hiding them behind houses, which works only on certain maps and even then about once per game.

Now go on and explain why this is exceptionally good game design.

The comparison to Tellers is obviously not 100% complete, but all in all it works. At the moment you have Somewhat comparable investment with a likely unit wipe. Just that the Teller is slightly cheaper, the wiped unit more expensive and do not require vision or manual input. On the other hand, they effective radius is smaller.

Your B4 comparison is quite off. Nobody knows where the B4 will hit, not even the person building it. And there is absolutely no counter play to the explosion. The demo charge can (at the moment) be swept by any squad without getting any damage. And in the previous implementation they could still be nullified by having sweepers around. If these two are the same to you then you are 1 billion percent clueless. This is not debateable.
But now on the more serious side again: Also the comparison to normal mines is a bit lacking. Normal mines don't give you much value if you do not support them. The fact that OST needs to somewhat rely on Tellers to counter is a tricky argument. Yes, they lack a light TD, but in many (even high level) games they survive the LV phase even without any Teller. The current implementation of Teller mines just shows that the faction design of OST is a bit off compared to others. An ability that can just turn the game around 180° is bad design, nothing more and nothing less.

I'd argue that if every squad should be able to detect demo charges, than the detection radius should be lowered. They should detect it approximately at the point were they get the outer edges of the AoE damage. So no wipe if a player is careful and pulls back, but they should get damaged.
27 Mar 2020, 16:38 PM
#27
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2802

.Your B4 comparison is quite off. Nobody knows where the B4 will hit, not even the person building it. And there is absolutely no counter play to the explosion. The demo charge can (at the moment) be swept by any squad without getting any damage. And in the previous implementation they could still be nullified by having sweepers around.


Yeah my B4 comparison is way off, the value you get from invisible demos is off the charts compared to the inaccurate B4 that’s also doctrinal, expensive, and can be countered by anything.

Meanwhile you want Axis players to have a sweeper at every point on the map to avoid getting squad wiped by the invisible stock Goliath. Basically no edge capping whatsoever, you have to keep a sweeper with you 24/7 or you get rekt. What about okw? They have to make 1-2 extra 300mp Spios for sweepers? That’s very fair, not like they’re already struggling against the Soviets early game, you wanna give them invisible stock goliaths too.

I don’t know what the point of this conversation is. You want Soviets to have stock invisible Goliaths (yeah they can’t move but who cares when you can only detect with sqeeper?) just because of tellers which are just a slight upgrade over the alternative mines that almost everyone gets.
27 Mar 2020, 16:40 PM
#28
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1096 | Subs: 1



Soviets dont float ammo nearly as much anymore imo. That is less of an issue now. Not being allowed in cap circles would have been enough next to a price increase at the time imo.


I know, but you could cheese it heavily if you wanted. The only way to get rid of mun in the early game is mines, PRTS upgrades (only T1) or AT grenades for snares as well as ZiS barrages (only T2). If you go a bit easy on this you surely can get a couple of demos out until the mid game, especially in larger modes.
But for SOV, their core gameplay does not change much if they invest mun early on into their infantry or not. OST needs to upgrade their med bunker and start upgrading their Grens to stay competitive. Cons and Penals don't. So if you're willing to delay your mobilized reserves upgrade for a bit, there is enough mun for demos.
27 Mar 2020, 16:45 PM
#29
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1096 | Subs: 1



Yeah my B4 comparison is way off, the value you get from invisible demos is off the charts compared to the inaccurate B4 that’s also doctrinal, expensive, and can be countered by anything.

Meanwhile you want Axis players to have a sweeper at every point on the map to avoid getting squad wiped by the invisible stock Goliath. Basically no edge capping whatsoever, you have to keep a sweeper with you 24/7 or you get rekt. What about okw? They have to make 1-2 extra 300mp Spios for sweepers? That’s very fair, not like they’re already struggling against the Soviets early game, you wanna give them invisible stock goliaths too.

I don’t know what the point of this conversation is. You want Soviets to have stock invisible Goliaths (yeah they can’t move but who cares when you can only detect with sqeeper?) just because of tellers which are just a slight upgrade over the alternative mines that almost everyone gets.


Re-read my post carefully instead of trying to ill-define a position that I do not have. I made a very clear suggestion at the end. Then go answer to that.
27 Mar 2020, 16:48 PM
#30
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2478 | Subs: 1



What the hell are you talking about?

Invisible demos = quickly place a 100% accuracy B4 shot on the ground and delete whatever you want unless swept and destroyed from afar. This is also stock. The alternative is to go Counterattack doctrine and make a b4, which is easily counterable by direct and indirect fire, not invisible and not accurate, not to mention extremely costly in comparison. The alternative is easily countered without needing a sweeper, unless it’s a Goliath which has audio cues and is doctrinal.

Lol what the hell am I talking about? You just made an absurd exaggeration to make your point, the b4 can also 1 hit KO medium tanks.... Just stop it.


Tellers = basically stronger TM28 mines, they one shot a LV but cannot be detonated by infantry.

That's a good thing, not a negative thing. Engine damage on a tank is way more valuable than 2 models off a squad


This is stock and available only to a faction that does not have a light TD for the LV phase stock (Puma) to compensate.

We've already discussed this before. My only recommendation would be nerfing tellers damage by 20. That leaves it open to be very easily killed by literally any source of AT Ost has

You're also suggesting that Ost relies exclusively on the teller to counter anything with 400 hp or less, which is absurd


The alternative is a TM28/Schu/M6 mine which are either stock or doctrinal (usf) and detonate by inf and deal slightly less damage to LVs, enough to cripple but not kill. Both need a sweeper to counter.

Right, because nerfing the damage by 20 DEFINITELY means you don't have to sweep anymore. Still only does more than half the damage to a medium tank? Nah it's absolutely worthless now, who needs to sweep for that. Please


Again, if these two are the same to you then you are 1 billion percent clueless. This is not debateable.

That's your opinion. But the fact that your both exaggerating tremendously, AND being kind of a dick about it says a lot about your argument
27 Mar 2020, 16:51 PM
#31
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4097 | Subs: 1

If this is turning into a demo discussion I agree changes would be nice. Cap model deaths at 3 per squad and let it be invisible again
This results in it being cost ineffective against single units but valuable againt blobs its a win win.
27 Mar 2020, 16:57 PM
#32
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2802

I'd argue that if every squad should be able to detect demo charges, than the detection radius should be lowered. They should detect it approximately at the point were they get the outer edges of the AoE damage. So no wipe if a player is careful and pulls back, but they should get damaged.


So I need to have 1000% perfect reflexes all over the map and retreat (it’s faster) because if I’m 0.5 secs late my squad is in wipe range? And this is somehow fair? Why would the Soviets have that? Which equivalent to the demo charge do other factions have?


That's your opinion.


No it’s not, it’s the general consensus that forced the demo charge change from invisible and only detectable by sweepers to what we have today. I’m not being a dick, you’re just making a garbage argument because you don’t understand how broken invisible sweepers would be.

Also the 20 damage to death on LVs thing is also dumb IN MY OPINION, unless you wanna give Ost a stock Puma in which case yes please.
27 Mar 2020, 17:04 PM
#33
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 128



It really isn't. 90 Muni for a squad wipe = OP, 50 Muni to kill 70 fuel unit totally fine? That makes no sense to me

And heard all the arguments about why I'm wrong

"It's easier to sweep for 1 unit than 4-5 squads"
No it isn't. The unit you're sweeping for is a light tank. There might only be one of them but keeping it waiting for your sweeper wastes precious time on a unit that has a limited window

"You could place it on any capping point getting easy wipes"
No, you need vision. Only way to do that without a spotter is placing it in the center, which can easily be avoided. To this day I cap points on the edge so I don't reveal what type of squad is there

The demo costed more, required manual detonation, and was the only unique thing CEs carried. I think they deserved to get nerfed, but it blows my mind how people can think the teller is fine


Combat Engeniers are fine no change needed at all.

And what is with this demo charge discussion?? Invisible demos are omega cancer. Specially okw has a hard time to field more than one sweeper... if you want to encourage okw blobs, sure make em invisible again. Cause when you have to expect demos on every point, blobbing around your sweeper is the best option.

It actually is 5times easier to sweep for one vehicle than for 5 infantry sqauds. A decent player will always sweep for their light vehicle against ostheer or they accept the risk of losing it, which obviously can be worth the risk.

For the vision thing, how is that an argument? just place a con behind sandbags/ plant trip wire flairs / poke with your t70 etc. getting vision is not an issue.

Mine spam is already one of the most annoying thing about soviets, no need to make it super cancer again as it used to be with invisible demos. Just use em with a brain behind los blocker or buidlings.
One reason why tellers are totally fine btw, you cant just spam them, you actually have to think about where to plant them.


27 Mar 2020, 17:06 PM
#34
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2478 | Subs: 1


No it’s not, it’s the general consensus that forced the demo charge change from invisible and only detectable by sweepers to what we have today. I’m not being a dick, you’re just making a garbage argument because you don’t understand how broken invisible sweepers would be.


Are you fucking blind dude?

The demo costed more, required manual detonation, and was the only unique thing CEs carried. I think they deserved to get nerfed, but it blows my mind how people can think the teller is fine


The only change I proposed for demos is removing territory point restriction. It's unnecessary if any squad can see them, WHICH I AM FINE WITH.

Also the 20 damage to death on LVs thing is also dumb IN MY OPINION, unless you wanna give Ost a stock Puma in which case yes please.


Why is it dumb? A 222 could easily finish that off unless the t70 is deep behind the lines, you don't need a puma to do 20 damage...
27 Mar 2020, 17:08 PM
#35
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2478 | Subs: 1



Combat Engeniers are fine no change needed at all.

And what is with this demo charge discussion?? Invisible demos are omega cancer. Specially okw has a hard time to field more than one sweeper... if you want to encourage okw blobs, sure make em invisible again. Cause when you have to expect demos on every point, blobbing around your sweeper is the best option.

It actually is 5times easier to sweep for one vehicle than for 5 infantry sqauds. A decent player will always sweep for their light vehicle against ostheer or they accept the risk of losing it, which obviously can be worth the risk.

For the vision thing, how is that an argument? just place a con behind sandbags/ plant trip wire flairs / poke with your t70 etc. getting vision is not an issue.

Mine spam is already one of the most annoying thing about soviets, no need to make it super cancer again as it used to be with invisible demos. Just use em with a brain behind los blocker or buidlings.
One reason why tellers are totally fine btw, you cant just spam them, you actually have to think about where to plant them.




Can you actually read the fucking post please? I am in full agreement that invisible demos are OP, I don't know how many times I have to say it. Jesus Christ
27 Mar 2020, 17:09 PM
#36
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2802

The only change I proposed for demos is removing territory point restriction. It's unnecessary if any squad can see them, WHICH I AM FINE WITH.


Okay cool I agree with that, except only the edges, not on the point cuz most orders are to clump up at the flag.

As for the 20 damage to death I’ve explained it before.
27 Mar 2020, 17:15 PM
#37
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2478 | Subs: 1



Okay cool I agree with that.

As for the 20 damage to death I’ve explained it before.


Yes I remember. You had a problem with potentially sacrificing a 222 to kill a t70. Still don't understand that, you're winning that resource trade by a lot

And the 222 could easily survive unless it's a teller deep behind enemy lines

27 Mar 2020, 17:22 PM
#38
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 128



Can you actually read the fucking post please? I am in full agreement that invisible demos are OP, I don't know how many times I have to say it. Jesus Christ


you compared old (invisible) demos with teller or am i wrong?
27 Mar 2020, 17:30 PM
#39
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2478 | Subs: 1


you compared old (invisible) demos with teller or am i wrong?


Correct. But you misunderstood most of the points. I wasn't trying to bring old demos back, OR even apply the same nerf to tellers

I think both are not okay but i would still say old demos are worse. You can see that by the changes I suggested. I want demos to remain detectable by any squad, tellers just to lose 20 dmg (new total of 380)

I think the only thing that's similar about them is it's a small Muni investment for too massive a payoff in both instances. I've talked about tellers enough though, the territory rule is the only thing I would change about demos
27 Mar 2020, 17:48 PM
#40
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1096 | Subs: 1



So I need to have 1000% perfect reflexes all over the map and retreat (it’s faster) because if I’m 0.5 secs late my squad is in wipe range? And this is somehow fair? Why would the Soviets have that? Which equivalent to the demo charge do other factions have?


You really should stop consistently assuming stuff that fits your "story" of something best.
I effectively suggested lowering the visibility radius to a point where micro and map awareness really matter. Current AoE radius is 6 meters, you see the charge at 13 though. Judging by the amount of demos we see in high level games both in tournaments and on twitch as well as the amount I see in my mid-low tier (which is basically none unless I build one), 13 meters is too much. The optimum would need to be tested. It's probably in the range of 8-11 meters. This means with a bit of micro you should be able to dodge it without any or just a bit of damage, maybe 1 model depending on how fast/slow you react.
If you forget your squad or act super slow and the demo has been placed in the right spot, you might loose more models or even the whole squad. That's how it should work, but unfortunately not the way it currently works.

Also don't do strawman arguments with "why does faction X have that but Y does not". It does not lead anywhere and is usually quite bullshit.
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