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Should soviet Combat E ngineers be buffed?

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28 Mar 2020, 12:30 PM
#61
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 564



What are your comparisons based on? You shouldn't compare 170mp combat engineers to 300mp OKW sturmpios (I'm not a fan of sturmpios but still the comparison is crazy). USF rear echelons never fight against them (but it is probably true that the 5th man is too much, still even if they fought each other I feel that combat engineers would win). Stun grenade is on sturmpios but it is doctrine tied so why are you writing about it? Why do you expect amazing dps from an engineer unit? They have many more useful abilities: they construct buildings, lay mines, sweep from mines, lay barbed wire, can be upgraded with flamer (and here is where their dps shine), they lay demo charges, and probably most importantly, they repair vehicles. On top of that, if you put them behind cover, or in a building, they will stop grens from advancing or even volks - so mainline infantry units. Once they get a flamer and are supported by merging conscripts they can be pretty much unstoppable. You can also put they into a halftrack and clear buildings. Once again, they are too cheap and add up to the result of the Soviets being the dominant faction at the moment.


I dont expect amazing dps on ce's. I dont want them to be 5 men squads. If the demo becomes ussable again i feel their price could use some tweaking towards 200mp. But in terms of combat, versatility or utility or even signature abilities they get the very very short end of the stick. They excel nowhere other then in their price.

I compare sturms because they are engineers just like ce's but are far better combatants Their stun nade is vet 1 btw. They justly cost 300mp.
Pio,s extra sight allows them to support their team weapons and inf without exposing them selfs. You can see without beeing seen.
Royal engies and rear echelons can get ai or at power and get extra hp as the game drags on. All nice added usses wich ce's lack. Hence tgeir just 170 mp price tag.

That you can put them in a halftrack or scout car is irrelevant. Its not like m3 or m5 are t0 or are free. Axis have either t0 atgun or with grens techless snare. Both mg,s of axis can rip through them. Merge keeps them on the field but at a minumum of 20 mp per merge. They are a 4 men squad facing faction wich fight 5 or 6 men squads mostly and have the dps accordingly.
28 Mar 2020, 12:46 PM
#62
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8234 | Subs: 1

If demo are to work like a booby trap change them to a booby trap and move them to vet 1.
28 Mar 2020, 12:52 PM
#63
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 930



I dont expect amazing dps on ce's. I dont want them to be 5 men squads. If the demo becomes ussable again i feel their price could use some tweaking towards 200mp. But in terms of combat, versatility or utility or even signature abilities they get the very very short end of the stick. They excel nowhere other then in their price.

...and still are too potent because of the abilities I mentioned. Demos were just crazily OP as they needed no doctrine and were just too good and cheesy.

I compare sturms because they are engineers just like ce's but are far better combatants.

...and imo the are one of the worst designed units in the game.


Their stun nade is vet 1 btw.

I stand corrected (which means that they are even a worse design)

They justly cost 300mp.

...but this becomes a dual edged sword once the game progresses. OKW has to keep buing 300mp squads to repair their vehicles ahile Soviets can do the same for 170mp.

Pio,s extra sight allows them to support their team weapons and inf without exposing them selfs. You can see without beeing seen.

...but it isn't as valuable as you make it be. This extra sight is just overrated. It is nice of course to help mgs early game. Still mgs must be behind other units and supported by more units than just a pio.

Royal engies and rear echelons can get ai or at power and get extra hp as the game drags on. All nice added usses wich ce's lack. Hence tgeir just 170 mp price tag.

other OP cheesy units, especially UK sappers

That you can put them in a halftrack or scout car is irrelevant. Its not like m3 or m5 are t0 or are free. Axis have either t0 atgun or with grens techless snare. Both mg,s of axis can rip through them. Merge keeps them on the field but at a minumum of 20 mp per merge. They are a 4 men squad facing faction wich fight 5 or 6 men squads mostly and have the dps accordingly.

But merge can make them unstoppable fire delivery unit - can be gamechanging.

Still, looking at all their utilities, they should simply be 200mp - just like other similar engineer units. Just remember that Soviets are simply slightlly OP compared to other factions. Lategame need for repairs makes Soviets overpowered, because of cheap pios. This is how it works: the fact that Sov can replace their repair units more quickly and then reinforce them more quickly on the field (through merge) speeds up the repair process of Soviet tanks too much compared to other factions.
28 Mar 2020, 13:01 PM
#64
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1588 | Subs: 3

How I would like for the Soviet engineers to return their unique barbed wire field.
28 Mar 2020, 14:47 PM
#65
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15158 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2020, 12:46 PMVipper
If demo are to work like a booby trap change them to a booby trap and move them to vet 1.

Why?
Other engineers do not have their signature abilities vet locked.
28 Mar 2020, 14:51 PM
#66
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 564


...and still are too potent because of the abilities I mentioned. Demos were just crazily OP as they needed no doctrine and were just too good and cheesy.

...and imo the are one of the worst designed units in the game.


I stand corrected (which means that they are even a worse design)

...but this becomes a dual edged sword once the game progresses. OKW has to keep buing 300mp squads to repair their vehicles ahile Soviets can do the same for 170mp.

...but it isn't as valuable as you make it be. This extra sight is just overrated. It is nice of course to help mgs early game. Still mgs must be behind other units and supported by more units than just a pio.

other OP cheesy units, especially UK sappers

But merge can make them unstoppable fire delivery unit - can be gamechanging.

Still, looking at all their utilities, they should simply be 200mp - just like other similar engineer units. Just remember that Soviets are simply slightlly OP compared to other factions. Lategame need for repairs makes Soviets overpowered, because of cheap pios. This is how it works: the fact that Sov can replace their repair units more quickly and then reinforce them more quickly on the field (through merge) speeds up the repair process of Soviet tanks too much compared to other factions.


Ce's have only the demo as a unique ability. other engies have 2 or even more. and that single ability is neutered beyond being usable in a live game. unlike some claim even when they where still good but cheesy, they could not be everywhere on every cap point, not even soviets had enough ammo to do that. The player cant watch multyple demo,s all the time to manualy detonate it. All of the soviet one shot abilities or units have been either removed or alterd. while esp ost stil has plenty potetial to do just that, the teller being the prime exameple closely followed by the rifle and bundle nades.

merge is a double egded sword. it costs 20 mp per use. it can cost you the con squad if you are unlucky. so its a balanced ability. Ce's only excel when cons merge with them and have the flamer or in a m3/m5, so OP.... 240 mp plus 170 mp plus 60 muni. and 20 mp per use/scout car/halftrack.

sturms are meant to hurt when you loose one. and okw has a non doc repair station so they are not even needed for repairing exclusivly.

the pio,s sight is underrated, recrew a mg42 with pio,s and they retain the vision. because of the vision you always react on time to turn or move your units.

soviets dont repair faster then ost t3 units. its just that al lot of end tech units of axis have larger health pools then soviets units do. that,s why they take longer to repair. soviet can replace losses faster because their units are cheaper and also weaker then almost all of their counter parts. they will lose more units during a match generaly. It would be broken if they had simaler repair times then axis who have larger hp pools and stronger units pound for pound. i hope you understand that.
all other repair options soviets have besides ce's are in doctrines, unlike okw and usf.

Again nothing wrong with soviets repair speeds atm. nothing wrong with ce's other then the demo sucking hard. only when the demo get back to being ussable should the price of the ce's be raised back to 200mp, only then.

(edit) soviet also have the least healing options stock, merge is not reinforcing its transfering models. ost has 3 ways to heal and reinforce, only one reinforce has to be in base. all the healing can be done out of base, unlike soviets.
28 Mar 2020, 15:14 PM
#67
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186

Having played against CapitanSprice engie spam I'm gonna give this a hard no. Combat engineers are easily the most valuable infantry unit in the Soviet line-up if used well. They could probably be toned down some, but I think Soviets need a bigger munitions sink instead.
28 Mar 2020, 15:21 PM
#68
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15158 | Subs: 7

but I think Soviets need a bigger munitions sink instead.

Literally every single action outside of moving and default attacking got a hefty muni cost....

Soviets are just as heavy muni faction as any other due to cost of abilities and now with actual con stock upgrade.
28 Mar 2020, 15:43 PM
#69
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2020, 15:21 PMKatitof

Literally every single action outside of moving and default attacking got a hefty muni cost....

Soviets are just as heavy muni faction as any other due to cost of abilities and now with actual con stock upgrade.


The other factions pay munis just to move and default attack cost effectively.
28 Mar 2020, 16:41 PM
#70
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 930



Ce's have only the demo as a unique ability. other engies have 2 or even more.

Can't agree that other engineers costing 200mp are better than CEs

merge is a double egded sword. it costs 20 mp per use. it can cost you the con squad if you are unlucky.

This is just incredibly biased or a l2p issue. Try early game pushes after which you don't need to retreat your flame unit, but can freely continue to wreck havoc.


sturms are meant to hurt when you loose one. and okw has a non doc repair station so they are not even needed for repairing exclusivly.

Have you tried retreating a damage engine vehicle to repair pios?

the pio,s sight is underrated, recrew a mg42 with pio,s and they retain the vision. because of the vision you always react on time to turn or move your units.

It is a feature but it doesn't jutify 170mp on a Sov engies.

soviets dont repair faster then ost t3 units. its just that al lot of end tech units of axis have larger health pools then soviets units do. that,s why they take longer to repair. soviet can replace losses faster because their units are cheaper and also weaker then almost all of their counter parts. they will lose more units during a match generaly. It would be broken if they had simaler repair times then axis who have larger hp pools and stronger units pound for pound. i hope you understand that.
all other repair options soviets have besides ce's are in doctrines, unlike okw and usf.

You're missing the point here. Lategame, when there are a lot of losses, Soviets can rebuy their engineer units more quickly because they are cheaper. They can save a lot of manpower on it. The discrepancy creates manpower imbalance at that gamestage. At that stage you only need engineer units to repair or sweep, not to fight.

Again nothing wrong with soviets repair speeds atm. nothing wrong with ce's other then the demo sucking hard. only when the demo get back to being ussable should the price of the ce's be raised back to 200mp, only then.

What is wrong is the price - it should be 200mp just like other engineer units.

(edit) soviet also have the least healing options stock, merge is not reinforcing its transfering models. ost has 3 ways to heal and reinforce, only one reinforce has to be in base. all the healing can be done out of base, unlike soviets.

Not really related to the cost of Soviet engineers. Remember that tournaments show that Soviets are the most powerful. It is a fact. Engineer cost is one of those little details that tips the balance imo.
28 Mar 2020, 16:57 PM
#71
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2604

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Mar 2020, 15:21 PMKatitof
Soviets are just as heavy muni faction


No grenades kind of mitigates that, though you are heavily encourage to lay down way more mines and there are some pretty heavy munitions sink abilities in commanders.

I'd say Soviets are less muni heavy if you're lazy with mines and just as muni heavy if you plant enough mines.
28 Mar 2020, 19:00 PM
#72
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 971 | Subs: 1


Firstly, the detection radius should never match the AoE radius, as this removes any ability for counter-play. I agree that the detection range should be smaller, but it needs to be slightly (+2?) larger than the AoE, to allow for the "attacking" player to back away on detection, while accounting for units that are sometimes unresponsive. Note, however, that any detection radius changes should also apply to other demos, including the goliath when it's not moving.

Secondly, the only way this would make sense, is if detected demos showed up like normal units - i.e. with a red highlight through buildings and a "unit" icon. Right now, even once detected, they can be incredibly hard to see on some terrain, and they can be placed behind stuff, so that they can't be seen from the default camera view.

Really, demos should just become a (slightly) cheaper, non-mobile, non-doc goliath.


The first post (the one you quoted) was a bit unclear. In a second post I stated that the detection radius should be slightly above the demo damage radius. Or rework the demo that it is below the 80 HP damage threshold for the last bit of the area. Which way exactly does not matter, what I am saying is that the time between detection and entering the demo radius should be slightly decreased. From what I am seeing is that basically no one uses demos, although they are highly accessible and also effective if they hit. The most reasonable explanation is that they are just very unlikely to hit, and a slight adjustment to the detection radius could be a way to fix that.

Maybe they should get the treatment as many things that were super "wipey": Lower the peak damage, make AoE a bit larger and adjust price accordingly afterwards. I also liked the idea of capping the total model number killed by the demo that someone suggested.

I disagree with the Goliath however. From what I see on Twitch when VonIvan uses them as well when I use them, they hit or miss really depending on how well your enemy micros. But with correct positioning they have a very high chance to hit. Goliaths however should also be reworked to a better fitting design. They and demos still stem from a time when models died exceptionally quickly.
28 Mar 2020, 19:56 PM
#73
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 564


Can't agree that other engineers costing 200mp are better than CEs

This is just incredibly biased or a l2p issue. Try early game pushes after which you don't need to retreat your flame unit, but can freely continue to wreck havoc.

Have you tried retreating a damage engine vehicle to repair pios?

It is a feature but it doesn't jutify 170mp on a Sov engies.

You're missing the point here. Lategame, when there are a lot of losses, Soviets can rebuy their engineer units more quickly because they are cheaper. They can save a lot of manpower on it. The discrepancy creates manpower imbalance at that gamestage. At that stage you only need engineer units to repair or sweep, not to fight.

What is wrong is the price - it should be 200mp just like other engineer units.

Not really related to the cost of Soviet engineers. Remember that tournaments show that Soviets are the most powerful. It is a fact. Engineer cost is one of those little details that tips the balance imo.


like i said before all other 200 mp engineers offer more then ce's do.
you claim they are excelent flame unit but only when merged with constantly or in a m3/m5. you need another unit to have them do anyting of note that is not what others engineer already do.

how is showing that an ability is working as intended but has downsides biased or l2p? please amaze me.
And my 4 men flame unit can move along fighting much stronger inf then them and my cons squad will be used up/wiped or retreated to base and i need to spend anywhere between 20mp to 240mp to get the cons squad back out.

getting a snared tank to the repair pio,s can take long. but not al damaged tanks get snared. Also it does not change the fact that okw has 2 ways or repairing stock. it also does not change the fact that the repair pio's do not need to be in base.

I did mis your point. you meant only the ce's. again they are cheaper because they get the short stick of the engineers in every aspect but price. Only good when combined with other units or spammed. they do nothing unique that is worth 200 mp. everthing they can do others can do it, do it better or do more or both.

the tournement should not be the only indication for balance. its misleading and is a very small sample size.
soviets are strong indeed. however they are getting some nerves.

with this i said my piece, i dont think we can agree on the ce's. so ill leave it at this.
28 Mar 2020, 20:00 PM
#74
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3940 | Subs: 1



No grenades kind of mitigates that, though you are heavily encourage to lay down way more mines and there are some pretty heavy munitions sink abilities in commanders.

I'd say Soviets are less muni heavy if you're lazy with mines and just as muni heavy if you plant enough mines.

Molitovs and oorah both cost 20mu per now so while they don't have nades, even using orrah to try and get decent positioning or throw an at nade will easily put you into the range of nade usage.
When soviet floated munitions oorah was cheaper, Molitovs were cheaper, cons didn't have an upgrade, penals didn't have an upgrade, SU76 barrage was free, mortars didn't have flares, maxim didn't have a munitions cost, penals didn't have any use at all let alone the AT package (they did have the flamer but as I said penals rotted in a gulag never seeing a fight so it's less relevant)

Soviet munitions consumption has gone through the roof and they have not been a munitions float faction in a good while.
Earlier game when other factions are kitting out with lmgs and assault rifles at every chance they can that gives a direct feel of strain, soviet have opportunity costs to sway the moment instead of swaying henceforth.
28 Mar 2020, 20:37 PM
#75
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7087 | Subs: 1

Why does this thread get to 4 pages -shakemyhead-

CE are more than fine after last changes.
28 Mar 2020, 21:12 PM
#76
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3940 | Subs: 1

Why does this thread get to 4 pages -shakemyhead-

CE are more than fine after last changes.

Because other units that can do more aren't as cheap! I mean okws engie (the one with assault rifles, a smaller than 1 target size, upgraded wire, health packs, stun nade, increased repair rate, can put away its sweeper and ignores what little terrain features are left) costs nearly twice as much and it's unfair don't ya know!
28 Mar 2020, 22:21 PM
#77
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15158 | Subs: 7

Why does this thread get to 4 pages -shakemyhead-

CE are more than fine after last changes.


As I've said on another thread:
jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2020, 13:39 PMKatitof

Its because people completely ignore reasonable threads with actual arguments, but absolutely LOVE to drag for 20 pages threads created by angry noobs claiming ridiculous things without replay or even a description of game/situation.

People love to REEEEEE and some people are just waiting for ability to complain about anything and everything and suddenly all of the units these noobs complain become "problematic" despite being perfectly fine, balanced meta units for years with no changes.
28 Mar 2020, 22:44 PM
#78
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 930

I guess the problem is that they are too cheap compared to other engineers.
28 Mar 2020, 23:12 PM
#79
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15158 | Subs: 7

I guess the problem is that they are too cheap compared to other engineers.

What problem?
They have THE worst stats of all of engineers and worst combat/utility performance.
28 Mar 2020, 23:29 PM
#80
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3940 | Subs: 1

I guess the problem is that they are too cheap compared to other engineers.
because they are the worst. That's how prices work!
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