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Ostheer T4 Hot garbage or Actually fine?

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30 Oct 2019, 00:05 AM
#41
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 151

OST t4 isn't viable in 1v1 because there is no light tank that you can use to pivot into t4. You really need that p4 to give you some breathing room against the other light vehicles that dominate the 222, and man-handle the MGs you need to keep pace with the infantry fight.

I've suggested earlier bringing in the short-barreled p4 into the light tank role. I've also suggested bringing the stug into t2 with or without battlephase 2 requirements.

As is there's no reason to go t4. Two p4s, or a tiger are going to be a better choice in all situations.

I think building a panther in 1v1 will lose you far more games than you win because of it's pop. You won't be able to field the panther, and a AI vehicle, and all the infantry and team weapons you need in 1v1. Even with a huge tempo advantage, you'll just get slowly pushed off the field while sitting on 1,000 something manpower that you can't put to good use because your pop-capped.

E:battlephase 2 not 3
30 Oct 2019, 00:08 AM
#42
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1983

OST t4 isn't viable in 1v1 because there is no light tank that you can use to pivot into t4. You really need that p4 to give you some breathing room against the other light vehicles that dominate the 222, and man-handle the MGs you need to keep pace with the infantry fight.

I've suggested earlier bringing in the short-barreled p4 into the light tank role. I've also suggested bringing to stug into t2 with or without bp3 requirements.

As is there's no reason to go t4. Two p4s, or a tiger are going to be a better choice in all situations.

I think building a panther in 1v1 will lose you far more games than you win because of it's pop. You won't be able to field the panther, and a AI vehicle, and all the infantry and team weapons you need in 1v1. Even with a huge tempo advantage, you'll just get slowly pushed off the field while sitting on 1,000 something manpower that you can't put to good use because your pop-capped.


Agreed on the light vehicle. It’s a huge shame there’s no panzer III in the game in Leichte Mechanized HQ, it would have made a huge positive difference for Ostheer.
30 Oct 2019, 02:36 AM
#43
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 700

OST t4 isn't viable in 1v1 because there is no light tank that you can use to pivot into t4. You really need that p4 to give you some breathing room against the other light vehicles that dominate the 222, and man-handle the MGs you need to keep pace with the infantry fight.

I've suggested earlier bringing in the short-barreled p4 into the light tank role. I've also suggested bringing the stug into t2 with or without battlephase 2 requirements.

As is there's no reason to go t4. Two p4s, or a tiger are going to be a better choice in all situations.

I think building a panther in 1v1 will lose you far more games than you win because of it's pop. You won't be able to field the panther, and a AI vehicle, and all the infantry and team weapons you need in 1v1. Even with a huge tempo advantage, you'll just get slowly pushed off the field while sitting on 1,000 something manpower that you can't put to good use because your pop-capped.

E:battlephase 2 not 3




Agreed on the light vehicle. It’s a huge shame there’s no panzer III in the game in Leichte Mechanized HQ, it would have made a huge positive difference for Ostheer.


I want the Stug III E to be a relatively early nondoc unit and LT analogue tbh.
30 Oct 2019, 02:55 AM
#44
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1983





I want the Stug III E to be a relatively early nondoc unit and LT analogue tbh.


I'm not all for it, but if I had to choose between nothing and the Stugie I'd choose the Stugie.

I wouldn't mind the Panzer IV F1 though.
30 Oct 2019, 04:24 AM
#45
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1070

As wehr boy in 2v2, i also like to add my views.

Overall t4 is least cost effective for Wehr now and that poses a big problem since its design for it. Too much micro for the costs. Too long xp to vet. Too lousy vet bonus for its cause. Armor is pointless. Blitz is questionable.

In top 1v1, meta now is straight to tiger. I think tiger needs a pen buff btw. Why it loses to panther and is2 makes no sense..

In my 2v2, its still less efficient since we get locked out by 60TD. Flanking is handicap by panther low turret and moving accuracy. I mean it can work, but why can cheaper allies rely less on micro?

Yes now i rush to t4 and only back teching for ostwind, normally. I go ostwind first if i see infantry blobbing. P4 is in a bad spot. Stug is in a bad spot.

I think pwafer is fine. But you need to get real close to be effective. Katsuya is more easier to use and deal heavier damages to weapon teams from safer distance. Another case for more micro work

I said scotts need a pop increase to be same as pwafer. While it doesn't do big sudden damage it is chipping away from hard to counter distance. For its survivability and crew repair, why is it cheaper than pwafer?

Brum i dont use now since it's need heavy babysitting. It is opposite, 1v1 good, 2v2 not so good. No point in 3v3 and 4v4.
30 Oct 2019, 04:27 AM
#46
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1070

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 22:05 PMAlphrum
If allied TD's get looked at, t4 wont need buff


Seriously this would solve a lot of issues imo.

A far accuracy nerf
Or only 55 range
Or less vet bonus

Wehr t4 design feels really handicapped and jailed since super 60TD arrive
30 Oct 2019, 05:47 AM
#47
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 498

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Oct 2019, 04:27 AMmrgame2


Seriously this would solve a lot of issues imo.

A far accuracy nerf
Or only 55 range
Or less vet bonus

Wehr t4 design feels really handicapped and jailed since super 60TD arrive


If that comes w8th a substantial delay of heavies and to a lesser exctent panthers allied td,s can be nerfed somewhat. That and all mediums and med td,s get a larger window to shine in.
30 Oct 2019, 07:54 AM
#48
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2193 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Oct 2019, 04:24 AMmrgame2
Blitz is questionable.


You can not be serious lol. How exactly is an ability that allows a vehicle to either escape or chase down any other vehicle (while also getting significantly lower target size) "questionable"?
30 Oct 2019, 08:05 AM
#49
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1070

Yes really, is questionable to dedicate one vet level to it. It is short with cooldown and so. It is negated with status alignments. For heavies it got further nerfed.

Offensively it is slave to moving accuracy.

Defensively, a double vet Jackson or su85 sorta over rule it if chased. I mean you pop blitz when health is already low.

Same case issue, a bit more micro for its cost.
30 Oct 2019, 08:06 AM
#50
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 14554 | Subs: 7



You can not be serious lol. How exactly is an ability that allows a vehicle to either escape or chase down any other vehicle (while also getting significantly lower target size) "questionable"?


Its very easy to explain, you see, if you are bad at the game and can barely get 30% out of any units potential, every single unit and ability will be "questionable" or "problematic" to you.
30 Oct 2019, 08:14 AM
#51
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1070

No really. The past blitz was ok, but not today. It is simply not enough. I would think if it also makes moving accuracy and turret lock faster. Then it make sense and scale better.

It makes axis tanks more fearful offensively and defensively

When you think about it, panther effectively gets only faster rof through the 3 vet levels. Poor scaling to costs
30 Oct 2019, 08:25 AM
#52
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2193 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Oct 2019, 08:14 AMmrgame2
When you think about it, panther effectively gets only faster rof through the 3 vet levels. Poor scaling to costs

When you think about it, almost every other vehicle in the game effectively gets only faster ROF at vet 3 too.


jump backJump back to quoted post30 Oct 2019, 08:14 AMmrgame2
Defensively, a double vet Jackson or su85 sorta over rule it if chased. I mean you pop blitz when health is already low.

Perhaps you should consider popping it before reaching critical health. I'm sorry, but have you ever considered the possibility it might be you that is the problem and not the units?
30 Oct 2019, 08:28 AM
#53
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1070

Yes that's what i meant. This rof is widely given vet but panther got armor and blitz as other vet, which their present uses are questionable these days.

Some additional for blitz
Split some armor values to hp
Then we are talking
MMX
30 Oct 2019, 10:27 AM
#54
avatar of MMX

Posts: 130


I'm sorry, but have you ever considered the possibility it might be you that is the problem and not the units?


this would actually make a nice pop-up dialog to show up everytime before a post or reply in the balance section is made.
30 Oct 2019, 10:28 AM
#55
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4217

I believe the brumbar might need a little survivability buff, mAybe move the vet armour or hp to vet 0 ?
30 Oct 2019, 10:38 AM
#56
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7607 | Subs: 1

Imo one of the issues of T4 is that it provides expensive high pop specialized units.

One could try to fix that by Placing:
stug-E to t3 for a much needed indirect fire support
Placing ostwind to T4 for an affordable AI tank
Make Brumbar a doctrinal closer to Avre/ST/KV-2
30 Oct 2019, 12:17 PM
#57
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1070

I consider that as downgrade. I like my ostwind at t3. Cannons are now deadly enough to push infantry and also deter light tanks. Its mobile enough to avoid med tanks. Imo ostwind is in a best spot.

Replace with stuge is going to face same problems of aec steward t34 trolling it like brother stug.

Brumbar is poor non doctrine, and not worth a doctrine slot

If anything, i rather replace stug with puma. Wehr can have a mobile 60 AT.

Or make puma into mechinsed assualt in place of pgren carrier.
30 Oct 2019, 12:50 PM
#58
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1889

I believe the brumbar might need a little survivability buff, mAybe move the vet armour or hp to vet 0 ?


Agreed. That's the only T4 Ost adjustment that makes sense.
30 Oct 2019, 13:17 PM
#59
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 93

I believe the brumbar might need a little survivability buff, mAybe move the vet armour or hp to vet 0 ?


I would argue that rather than buffing the armour, making the brummbär more resistant to all AT, they should increase the barrage range. It is absurd that this vehicle can not fulfil the supposed role of attacking stationary positions as its vet ability has the same range as AT gun. Increasing the range of barrage by 5 and 5 more at vet 3 would up to total + 10range. This would act as a pseudobuff to the durability. This would be more balanced way to make stupa perform better in its supposed role without becoming more resistant to the allied TDs which should hardcounter this designated AI vehicle.

EDIT: I'm also here to protest grave injustice: Hull down does not increase the range of the barrage.
30 Oct 2019, 13:26 PM
#60
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6773 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Oct 2019, 08:28 AMmrgame2
Yes that's what i meant. This rof is widely given vet but panther got armor and blitz as other vet, which their present uses are questionable these days.

Some additional for blitz


You are really missing the point. He is basically telling you to use Blitz/Combat blitz BEFORE taking damage. As it meant to be use.

OH Blitz reduces the size of your tank and combat blitz gives you RoF + acc boost in exchange for the acceleration component.
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