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Ostheer T4 Hot garbage or Actually fine?

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31 Oct 2019, 08:42 AM
#81
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2729 | Subs: 1



I think that Brumbär should have some major advantage in AI capability over the ostwind when you take into the account that they are in different tiers. Currently they both have the same shock AI role and same weakness to AT and TD. One could argue that ostwind is even stronger option now due to AA, not being as micro intensive and it is able to flank stuff due its rotating turret.

Arguing that brummbär shouldn't be able to outrange AT with ability because pzwerfers exist is like saying Zis guns shouldn't have barrage. "If you need indirect fire then mortar is your choice."


It has its advantage in form of field presence. Brumbar outranging Atgun proved to be OP because the only counter left are Tank Destroyers. Tanks Destroyers that the same vocal group of Axis fanboy complains about their supposed over powerness and want to nerf as well. ATgun are still one of the counter to Brumbar so it is normal that the brumbar doesn't have an ability to counter them from safe distance.

---

Imo T4 suffer more from heavy tank meta still in use in 90% of games than being weak. Ostheer T4 is still the way to go vs Allied premium medium tanks and heavy elite infantry play.
Ostwind going on par with the Brumbar is a problem of Ostwind being too good, not the brumbar being bad, Brumbar 2 or 3 shots any squads and that the maximum it can do as per balance standard.

31 Oct 2019, 08:50 AM
#82
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4217

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 08:42 AMEsxile


It has its advantage in form of field presence. Brumbar outranging Atgun proved to be OP because the only counter left are Tank Destroyers. Tanks Destroyers that the same vocal group of Axis fanboy complains about their supposed over powerness and want to nerf as well. ATgun are still one of the counter to Brumbar so it is normal that the brumbar doesn't have an ability to counter them from safe distance.

---

Imo T4 suffer more from heavy tank meta still in use in 90% of games than being weak. Ostheer T4 is still the way to go vs Allied premium medium tanks and heavy elite infantry play.
Ostwind going on par with the Brumbar is a problem of Ostwind being too good, not the brumbar being bad, Brumbar 2 or 3 shots any squads and that the maximum it can do as per balance standard.

are we gonna nerf both ostwind and centaur ? cause they have same ai
31 Oct 2019, 09:04 AM
#83
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2197 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 08:19 AMmrgame2
I mean yes elefant is good mobile big pak, but hardly enough to zone out, at least in 2v2 i play. Just do a rush of t34 or sherman and i got to back padel hard


Again, that's going to have more to do with you than with the unit itself. The Elefant is enough to dominate all Allied armor, and is very hard to flank when it can see enemies coming from miles away with spotting scopes and when it's properly supported with Pak 40s / Schrecks or other tanks for support to prevent a dive. The ISU-152 does not dominate the meta like the Elefant did and still does.

Also, fun fact, the Elefant is actually better at dealing with flanks because it has better gun traverse than the ISU-152. Top Speed hardly matters there. The Elefant has a faster reload, higher alpha damage (which means two shots and a faust can kill a medium tank or a TD) and doesn't need to switch shells first. The only advantage the ISU-152's got here is slightly higher rear armor, that only helps against Panzer IVs because the Panther, Jagdpanzer IV and Stug ausf.E are guaranteed to penetrate it at any distance.

Go watch the 2v2 Masters Cup here and tell us how many ISU-152s you saw compared to how many Elefants. These matches show how dominant the Elefant was in most games, and how incredibly hard it was for the Allies to take it out.
31 Oct 2019, 12:06 PM
#84
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1128

Biggest problem is the obvious double standard when it comes to Ost lategame units. It seems like the devs are always careful to prevent them from performing.

KV8 burning your AT guns to crips in midgame? Tough luck, you got outplayed.

ISU wiping AT guns at 70 range lategame? Build tanks.

Brummbär wiping AT guns lategame? Not acceptable. Armor nerf + range reduction.

That is why I'm under the impression the community devs have a certain bias. Ost and Okw were about quality. This has entirely been patched out of the game.
31 Oct 2019, 12:22 PM
#85
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2729 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 12:06 PMButcher
Biggest problem is the obvious double standard when it comes to Ost lategame units. It seems like the devs are always careful to prevent them from performing.

KV8 burning your AT guns to crips in midgame? Tough luck, you got outplayed.

ISU wiping AT guns at 70 range lategame? Build tanks.

Brummbär wiping AT guns lategame? Not acceptable. Armor nerf + range reduction.

That is why I'm under the impression the community devs have a certain bias. Ost and Okw were about quality. This has entirely been patched out of the game.


Does the KV8 burn it from out of Atgun range?
31 Oct 2019, 12:23 PM
#86
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 14598 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 12:06 PMButcher
Biggest problem is the obvious double standard when it comes to Ost lategame units. It seems like the devs are always careful to prevent them from performing.

KV8 burning your AT guns to crips in midgame? Tough luck, you got outplayed.

ISU wiping AT guns at 70 range lategame? Build tanks.

Brummbär wiping AT guns lategame? Not acceptable. Armor nerf + range reduction.

That is why I'm under the impression the community devs have a certain bias. Ost and Okw were about quality. This has entirely been patched out of the game.

KV-8 needs to get quite close and personal, it can't exactly shoot from beyond FoW.

You comparing FUCKING ISU to brummbar speaks about brummbar performance already.

And you dare to speak about bias lol.
31 Oct 2019, 12:44 PM
#87
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1128

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 12:22 PMEsxile


Does the KV8 burn it from out of Atgun range?
No. But neither did the pre nerf Brumm. Pre nerf it had 40 range and AT guns had 60 range. Do the math.
31 Oct 2019, 13:06 PM
#88
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1070



Again, that's going to have more to do with you than with the unit itself. The Elefant is enough to dominate all Allied armor, and is very hard to flank when it can see enemies coming from miles away with spotting scopes and when it's properly supported with Pak 40s / Schrecks or other tanks for support to prevent a dive. The ISU-152 does not dominate the meta like the Elefant did and still does.

Also, fun fact, the Elefant is actually better at dealing with flanks because it has better gun traverse than the ISU-152. Top Speed hardly matters there. The Elefant has a faster reload, higher alpha damage (which means two shots and a faust can kill a medium tank or a TD) and doesn't need to switch shells first. The only advantage the ISU-152's got here is slightly higher rear armor, that only helps against Panzer IVs because the Panther, Jagdpanzer IV and Stug ausf.E are guaranteed to penetrate it at any distance.

Go watch the 2v2 Masters Cup here and tell us how many ISU-152s you saw compared to how many Elefants. These matches show how dominant the Elefant was in most games, and how incredibly hard it was for the Allies to take it out.


We have to agree to disagree then. My question is still is the elefant that much better to make it that eaiser to kill than isu? Imo no.

About spotting scope, it just got nerf. So did command tank. 2 further hits to elefant to raise the above questions about why wehr paying more always.

About flanking, imo both their guns are so slow, it wont matter. I always thought rotation is more important to cover your rear, which why Churchill are quietly op even they are slow. I also think faster isu speed allow it to reverse out faster importantly. Besides the percentage different between their 2 plus points still higher for isu.

Wehr have to depend on stug you say. Then soviet have su85. Isnt it better?

About the 2v2, i made comment back when i was viewing. Elefant was keeping wehr in the games. If there is panic puma, we have essential elefant. As i play 2v2, i totally get being locked out by 60TD as the game progress. Back then ukf just dominant with Churchill.

I think there was a match up between isu and elefant in a map with hans/devm vs some other. I don't remember elefant domination.
31 Oct 2019, 13:08 PM
#89
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2036

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 12:44 PMButcher
No. But neither did the pre nerf Brumm. Pre nerf it had 40 range and AT guns had 60 range. Do the math.


He means the vet 1 barrage ability.

Of course, they nerfed both the ability and regular attack range just because the ability was overperforming.
31 Oct 2019, 13:50 PM
#90
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 501

are we gonna nerf both ostwind and centaur ? cause they have same ai


Can the ukf always non doc field a combination of centuar and avril?

No, so that they have same ai is irrelevant.
31 Oct 2019, 14:01 PM
#91
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2036



Can the ukf always non doc field a combination of centuar and avril?

No, so that they have same ai is irrelevant.


You’re grasping at straws that aren’t even there.

As for the Ostwind, it got buffed for a reason, as it was absolutely useless. Now it’s very much a meta unit that can handle infantry and push away light vehicles, while also providing quality AA.
31 Oct 2019, 15:12 PM
#92
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1316

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 12:23 PMKatitof

KV-8 needs to get quite close and personal, it can't exactly shoot from beyond FoW.



The KV8 can give a shit about at gun range. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1teRM94ArE&t=24m6s&t=24m6s
Try doing the same with a Brummbar.
31 Oct 2019, 20:59 PM
#95
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1128



The KV8 can give a shit about at gun range. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1teRM94ArE&t=24m6s&t=24m6s
Try doing the same with a Brummbar.
Why is that shit okay midgame while the Brummbär isn't allowed to do that lategame, end of tech and at a high fuel price for the supposed lategame faction?

Holy shit. If the Brumm isn't supposed to kill soft targets with ease then at least give it better survivability.
31 Oct 2019, 21:13 PM
#96
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 817

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 20:59 PMButcher
Why is that shit okay midgame while the Brummbär isn't allowed to do that lategame, end of tech and at a high fuel price for the supposed lategame faction?

Holy shit. If the Brumm isn't supposed to kill soft targets with ease then at least give it better survivability.


Several people have been arguing that the Kv-8 is super good when comparing it to the brumar, But Jove seems to have lost that game b/c he couldn't kill any tanks after buying it :snfCHVGame:

I do agree though the Brumbar has some disadvantages over the Kv-8 for sure like higher tech costs, armor and HP. It can get more Kills overall over the course of most games as 1 blast still has higher 1HK potential than flames, but the Kv8 is better at wipes if you don't retreat promptly.

It's really tough to make either of the units work in a game which is often decided by tank to tank combat so they do need to be quite strong, or at least an economically efficient option else they won't be used.
31 Oct 2019, 23:36 PM
#97
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 501



You’re grasping at straws that aren’t even there.

As for the Ostwind, it got buffed for a reason, as it was absolutely useless. Now it’s very much a meta unit that can handle infantry and push away light vehicles, while also providing quality AA.


I intended use was more to stop or be stationary when firing. People wanted a t70ich ai tank and they got it. That is why it got buffed. The result is it overshadowing a unit a tier later. And now that needs a buff to be meta. You cant have every stock unit be meta.
31 Oct 2019, 23:51 PM
#98
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2036



I intended use was more to stop or be stationary when firing. People wanted a t70ich ai tank and they got it. That is why it got buffed. The result is it overshadowing a unit a tier later. And now that needs a buff to be meta. You cant have every stock unit be meta.


Yes you can, it’s called having a well designed army where every unit has a role and use.
1 Nov 2019, 01:53 AM
#99
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3661 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 20:59 PMButcher
Why is that shit okay midgame while the Brummbär isn't allowed to do that lategame, end of tech and at a high fuel price for the supposed lategame faction?

Holy shit. If the Brumm isn't supposed to kill soft targets with ease then at least give it better survivability.

The difference is the dot vs instant evaporation. Why is the Soviet flame arty so soon when stuka dive bomb comes son much later? Is this more Soviet bias perhaps? Why does the flame halftrack come out of t2 but the AVRE needs a full tech? Ost op?

Or PERHAPS... Now hear me out, there is a difference (keep paying attention this is the important bit) to instant AOE damage and constant damage.
Look away from a flame unit and you have a bit of time to retreat and the unit will have to chase (putting it in danger) look away when a brumbar turns up and you might not have a chance to retreat.
Its the difference in reaction time.
1 Nov 2019, 02:14 AM
#100
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 501



Yes you can, it’s called having a well designed army where every unit has a role and use.


If it was that easy all factions would have that already woudnt they?

All faction have non meta units. All rts have non meta units. Ost is not and should not be the exveption.
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