The bofors has nothing to do with the flak hq and it has nothing to do with my opinion that the flak hq should have a popcost Like I already said, I think almost everything should have a popcost, such as bunkers as well. Unless you pay per each use, which is another option someone suggested
Calm the fuck down and stop making demands. Saying it needs multiple significant buffs just because I suggested adding a popcost of 5 is absurd
ppl compare the bofors to flak because they are both similar in terms of combat performance. The reason units like bofors and why bunkers should have pop cup is because you can build more then 1. imagine your someone who puts the flak in there base for protection, your paying popcap for a unit that sits in base the whole game. If you want to add pop cap to flak, encouraging people to use pop cap effectively, then remove the risk that if its destroyed you don't lose your tech
I don't really disagree. Just don't see the point of it, but at the end of the day all I'm asking for is it take up a tiny bit of pop space
you mean like other units? like the bofors? didnt you not want to compare it with the bofors yet, want to apply things from other units to flak. If you want to add pop cap to it, then you better damn well give it brace and the ability to target enemy units as well as removing the toggle between AA and ground and finally buffing its AA to pre nerf levels
As I wrote in my opening post, I am kind of divided if I personally consider the JP4 already OP or "just" very good. That's why I wanted to start this discussion.
From how I read your post, you're arguing that Allied TDs are already good against everything except for the JP4. If they performed well against the JP4, they'd lack a real weakness, which would be bad for the game.
I fully agree.
And that's exactly the issue that I have with the JP4. It counters all Allied non-doc vehicles with the exception of the Comet and maybe, maybe the Churchill (against which it still does "okay"). Including - if not to say, especially - all Allied TDs. One single unit in one single faction is all that the JP4 is bad against. USF and Soviets are kind of out of options. Also, the JP4 does not win against TDs because of its armor (it has <4,5% frontal bounce chance), but because of its ROF and at vet2 also health.
While Allied TDs are at least rather fragile (SU85 and Jackson) or clunky and slow firing (Firefly), giving even mediums the chance to just bum rush a damaged TD and win. That's not the case with the JP4. If you don't find the rear armor, good luck with ~55% pen chance with your medium tank all while having lower ROF than the JP4. If you're Axis and dive an Allied TD, getting to the rear is beneficial, but you can still manage if not. As Allies against the JP4, it is actually required, because otherwise you cannot win.
In my eyes, the only things holding the JP4 back are slight mobility issues until it vets up and most of all its timing. In the current meta and with OKW often losing the infantry advantage around the 15 min mark, your first vehicle should be a medium, not a TD. For some reasons (I assume reliability and less micro but not sure) people often get the Panther afterwards.
As Sanders said, builds with heavies are hard to beat. I personally play them with grand offensive. Pfusies keep you safe from flanking mediums, and you have the option for the Tiger. I found it sometimes difficult to make it to the Tiger because of some holes in the AI line up that are caused by the JP4, but they can be manageable and once you got the Tiger, you're usually good to go for the end game.
ok i get it but what is your solution? lets say we will nerf its armour to make it paper thin like su85. Its performance vs TD's wont change as they have high pen anyway, it will still be OP with KT's/tigers and makes an underused unit even less desirable but at least it will be more venerable to med tanks.
From my experience, the problem does not stem from the unit itself but when its used in combination with other tanks. jp4 + KT or su85 with ISU152's both are almost impossible to overcome.
1 solution could be armour and VET nerf (give accuracy or more damage in VET instead or nothing at all) as well as a price decrease which could make it more appealing to go for (maybe have it med truck like before), but im curious about what you think should be done.
I did not mean actually hitting a target, but rather just having the first shot. According to my calcs (assuming SU85 hits about 2/3 of its scatter shots which is fairly in line from what I tested against a medium tank and JP4 hits 50% of its scatter shots due to larger scatter angle), JP4 wins fairly easily in direct combat. The SU85 can equal out if the JP4 has to rotate for about 2 seconds (SU85 attacks at 40° angle) before being able to shoot. Granted, I the reduced precision for the first shot is not factored in, but still.
Once the JP4 hits vet2 and gets extra health, SU85 can't really win anymore, even at vet3. Regarding pure DPS, the SU85 is the best of the Allied destroyers. Which means that without any support (or at the very least lucky long range Tulips from the Firefly), Jackson and Firefly will likely lose too.
If you regularly have to push into a JP4, which many maps force you to, the best you can realistically hope for as an Allied player is to trade somewhat equally with the JP4 and force a retreat. In 80% of the other scenarios, you'll draw the short end of the stick.
To make it short:
It depends on what you understand as "shut down". Complete domination with high chance of regularly losing your TD? No, that's not the case. But severly hampering its performance? For sure.
A P4 also does not utterly dominate a T34. But whenever those two meet, the T34 should not pick the fight unless there are other units to support it. Obviously this comparison is a bit off, since those mediums have a cost difference which in case of the JP4 either not the case or slightly even in favor of the JP4.
i agree with your assessment. So whats wrong? should JP4 be losing to allied TD's? isn't jp4 beating and to effectively fighting back and counter allied TD's exactly what this unit should be capable of? correct me if wrong, jp4 exists to counter medium armoured tanks and below, hence why it does not have the pen of other 60 range TD's but does have better armour and health which allows it to counter them better. Allied TD's already effectively counter every single axis non doc vehicle expect for the jp4. as far as i can see, this unit is performing as intended.
The SU85 will usually still lose even despite having the first shot (which is by far also not a guarantee).
Firefly can fight back with Tulips, those are very hard to aim at 50-60 range and apart from Tulips it will heavily lose.
Jackson? Not too much. It can just avoid the JP4. Best it could do is to spot an angle, take a pot shot and back off before the JP4 has rotated, but that is unreliable at best and takes a huge micro effort. Real flanking is not a realistic option. The main Jackson's main strength is its 60 range, you're not diving this vehicle. If you want to flank and dive, a Sherman is the better option.
In most scenarios, Allied TDs will trade way worse than the JP4, especially of both of them gather veterancy over time.
same of the jp4, it could very well miss on long range , however i am not disagreeing with your post, i was just responding to the people saying jp4 SHUTS DOWN allied TD play which is just not true.
Lol, jackson can outflank it XD.
You've just proven your level of game sense. I'd excuse myself of commenting further if I were you.
Imagine that. Jackson outflanking a JP4. Talking about units in a vacuum xD
Holy moly, that's some rank 9999 talking right there or just the usual wehraboo stuff
if you learn to read, im addressing the point the "jp4 shuts down allied TD play". i understand people like you who have below average IQ and have trouble understanding what context is
A lot of comments here saying jp4 shuts down allied TD's, that's just simply not true, they are both in range and can fight each other, yes in a vaccum jp4 may have the advantage but this is not 1 unit vs 1 unit and even it was, Firefily can have tupils to wreck the jp4, jackson can outflank it easily and su85 can spot it first. AN elephant or jagdtiger shuts down Allied TD's.
Ppl as usual over exaggerating unit performance
JP4 is by far the best TD in the game. Insanely good ROF. Insanely survivable. Penetration is decent enough to warrant pens on pretty much all stock tanks. Even when it goes against heavy tanks, the ROF is enough to warrant a couple of pens.
It's been OP for a long time. Nobody talked about it because the Jackson has been the main thorn in OST players regarding TDs. But in teamgames, on lane-y maps, Jackson doesn't hold a candle to JP4.
Pretty much every thread was filled with whataboutisms and so nobody talked about JP4.
JP4 has a 60% chance to pen a Comet. That's more than enough coupled with the ROF it has.
Even when going vs an IS-2. The penetration chance is 50%. You won't kill an IS-2, but you will most definitely keep it in check.
Put a JP4 on a lane-y map, combine it with a P4 and a stuka, and you have a perfect reply to anything in teamgames. Especially since diving a JP4 is difficult. You can't fire on the move due to the 17 target size and you have to go behind it due to 230 armour. Not to mention it's a 5 shot tank at vet2. It's literally a perfect TD considering OKW playstyle. The lower penetration is there because it shoots hella-fast.
50-60% chance to pen are not reliable values to have lol. Majority of ppl agree Jackson is the best non doc TD in the game. the fact that you need to bring laney maps to prove a tank is OP shows in reality, the unit is not. You CAN fire on the move vs its 17 target size is because the moment you come on its sides it cant fire back, so that parts not true at all. And why would you need to get behind it when it has 230 armour? All allied TD's, At guns and most tanks can hit it from the front too. The reason ppl flank it because it cant fire back.
lol hope this thread is a joke. Jp4 is to counter medium tanks and below. like other TD's its got no chance vs inf and At guns and doesn't reliably pen tanks with decent armour. Yes, it has some superior stats to other 60 range TD's but its lacking in 1 critical department and that's high penetration.
You dont see it as much cuz OKW need inf support from pz4 otherwise you'll get steam rolled by inf and panthers to counter heavy armour.
Havent used or had this tactic used against me yet. However i hope the balance team dont just straight up nerf scott or pathfinder, i think its good that USF players are actually using combined arms for once instead of blobbing riflemen/officers like most do in team games.