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Ostheer T4 Hot garbage or Actually fine?

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30 Oct 2019, 15:49 PM
#61
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2731 | Subs: 1



I would argue that rather than buffing the armour, making the brummbär more resistant to all AT, they should increase the barrage range. It is absurd that this vehicle can not fulfil the supposed role of attacking stationary positions as its vet ability has the same range as AT gun. Increasing the range of barrage by 5 and 5 more at vet 3 would up to total + 10range. This would act as a pseudobuff to the durability. This would be more balanced way to make stupa perform better in its supposed role without becoming more resistant to the allied TDs which should hardcounter this designated AI vehicle.

EDIT: I'm also here to protest grave injustice: Hull down does not increase the range of the barrage.


If you want to take a position from afar, build a pzwerfer. If you need shock value then the brumbar is your choice.
30 Oct 2019, 17:22 PM
#62
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 93

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Oct 2019, 15:49 PMEsxile


If you want to take a position from afar, build a pzwerfer. If you need shock value then the brumbar is your choice.


I think that Brumbär should have some major advantage in AI capability over the ostwind when you take into the account that they are in different tiers. Currently they both have the same shock AI role and same weakness to AT and TD. One could argue that ostwind is even stronger option now due to AA, not being as micro intensive and it is able to flank stuff due its rotating turret.

Arguing that brummbär shouldn't be able to outrange AT with ability because pzwerfers exist is like saying Zis guns shouldn't have barrage. "If you need indirect fire then mortar is your choice."
30 Oct 2019, 17:23 PM
#63
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 504



I think that Brumbär should have some major advantage in AI capability over the ostwind when you take into the account that they are in different tiers. Currently they both have the same shock AI role and same weakness to AT and TD. One could argue that ostwind is even stronger option now due to AA, not being as micro intensive and it is able to flank stuff due its rotating turret.

Arguing that brummbär shouldn't be able to outrange AT with ability because pzwerfers exist is like saying Zis guns shouldn't have barrage. "If you need indirect fire then mortar is your choice."


I am confused, you want it to outrange at guns and td,s?
30 Oct 2019, 17:27 PM
#64
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 93



I am confused, you want it to outrange at guns and td,s?


AT guns with the barrage ability.
30 Oct 2019, 17:47 PM
#65
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3685 | Subs: 1

Didn't read the whole thread so sorry if this is repeating other suggestions

I think a bigger problem for t4 is that it's kind of a double slap getting the units because you have the BP3 that does nothing and then need to build the building.

Id make BP3 add some boons to the wehr lineup so a player might research it even if they don't PLAN to build t4 which means it's easier to escalate to t4 if the opportunity arises.

This, imo would be the place to put armored skirts if they became an upgrade or perhaps a 10% damage reduction for 4 man infantry squads (instead of the vet unlocked one for grens)

Something to make the climb to t4 more attractive than just the units.
30 Oct 2019, 17:57 PM
#66
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 598


Something to make the climb to t4 more attractive than just the units.


I like this idea.
30 Oct 2019, 18:12 PM
#67
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 169

Maybe make the barrage available at vet zero for a munitions cost that goes down with vet.
30 Oct 2019, 18:41 PM
#68
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1907

I still think adding a side-tech in T4 to get a mechanic team like OKW would be nice. Could be the same price as OKW repair station too.
30 Oct 2019, 19:09 PM
#69
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 177

An idea I've been toying around with is giving grens an LMG-34 initial upgrade that's identical to the current lmg, and then having a separate upgrade to a buffed LMG-42 available.

OST doesn't have an option for a late-game infantry win since allies will always be able to field squads with better potential. This forces you to win with vehicles, and indirectly makes panther and stug a really bad option since you really need a vehicle to win the infantry fight for you, on top of protecting your own infantry. Stug and panther don't really contribute much to the infantry fight so they can be a dead investment against a player who makes a couple AT squads and an AT gun while still handily beating your grens.

My only thing is that I wouldn't tie an lmg-34 to lmg-42 upgrade to BP3. I'd make it a fuel heavy upgrade at t2 or unlock through the headquarters.
30 Oct 2019, 20:46 PM
#70
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1321

The thing about T4 not being viable for 1v1 Ost is a fundamental flaw. Ost was supposed to be the late game faction. They are hands down the weakest faction early game, though give credit where credit is due, slightly better than in the past due to slightly faster pgren deployment. Their early-mid game is meh as they've always lacked a bulletproof LV. Their midgame is ok with a decent T3 for the most part but their supposed to be STRONG in the late game. Without a STRONG late game, there's little point in playing Ost in a 1v1, hence at the top level OKW players badly outnumber Ost in 1v1 game mode. OKW has hands down a stronger early AND late game than Ost.
30 Oct 2019, 21:00 PM
#71
avatar of pencilp5

Posts: 16



I would argue that rather than buffing the armour, making the brummbär more resistant to all AT, they should increase the barrage range. It is absurd that this vehicle can not fulfil the supposed role of attacking stationary positions as its vet ability has the same range as AT gun. Increasing the range of barrage by 5 and 5 more at vet 3 would up to total + 10range. This would act as a pseudobuff to the durability. This would be more balanced way to make stupa perform better in its supposed role without becoming more resistant to the allied TDs which should hardcounter this designated AI vehicle.

EDIT: I'm also here to protest grave injustice: Hull down does not increase the range of the barrage.


So how about hulldown non doc woth fixing of that <;]
30 Oct 2019, 21:04 PM
#72
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2064

The thing about T4 not being viable for 1v1 Ost is a fundamental flaw. Ost was supposed to be the late game faction. They are hands down the weakest faction early game, though give credit where credit is due, slightly better than in the past due to slightly faster pgren deployment. Their early-mid game is meh as they've always lacked a bulletproof LV. Their midgame is ok with a decent T3 for the most part but their supposed to be STRONG in the late game. Without a STRONG late game, there's little point in playing Ost in a 1v1, hence at the top level OKW players badly outnumber Ost in 1v1 game mode. OKW has hands down a stronger early AND late game than Ost.


Which is why clutching on Tiger doctrines is so widespread.

I wish t4 had other benefits, like faster repairs or a repair station upgrade for the T4 structure like okw mech HQ, or higher vet gain for all inf units, or free medkits.
30 Oct 2019, 21:18 PM
#73
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1130

The range reduction killed the Brummbär for me. All while an ISU at 70 range wiping squads is obviously perfectly fine by the balance teams standards (I don't care about the price or that the ISU is doctrinal. The basic concept of being able to wipe stuff at long ranges should either apply to both sides or to no side at all).

Make the Brummbär more expensive and revert the range to 40. It should be an option to seriously hurt your opponents infantry and achieve breakthroughs. Currently it's just a more clumsy Ostwind that also can't even deflect shots reliably.

I think it's ridiculous that the Brummbär is nerfed because it could reliably fight AT guns, yet the KV8 is perfectly fine tackling multiple Paks.
30 Oct 2019, 23:45 PM
#74
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1321

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Oct 2019, 21:18 PMButcher
The range reduction killed the Brummbär for me. All while an ISU at 70 range wiping squads is obviously perfectly fine by the balance teams standards (I don't care about the price or that the ISU is doctrinal. The basic concept of being able to wipe stuff at long ranges should either apply to both sides or to no side at all).

Make the Brummbär more expensive and revert the range to 40. It should be an option to seriously hurt your opponents infantry and achieve breakthroughs. Currently it's just a more clumsy Ostwind that also can't even deflect shots reliably.

I think it's ridiculous that the Brummbär is nerfed because it could reliably fight AT guns, yet the KV8 is perfectly fine tackling multiple Paks.


+1000 You hit the nail on the head here. Panther is nothing special, werfer is quite situational but what killed T4 for me was the overnerfs to the Brummbar. Like someone said earlier panther and werfer are reactionary units either you have heavy doc armor u can't reliably deal with using StuGs or u face at gun walls to get a werfer. The Brum is the only proactive unit in T4 that players use to go on the offensive, yet the unit lacks in almost all regards in comparison to cheaper units like the Kv8, which has no problems in burning through 2 at guns. In fact I made a thread on Brum being UP compared to KV8 around 2 weeks ago.

31 Oct 2019, 01:29 AM
#75
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1072

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Oct 2019, 21:18 PMButcher
The range reduction killed the Brummbär for me. All while an ISU at 70 range wiping squads is obviously perfectly fine by the balance teams standards (I don't care about the price or that the ISU is doctrinal. The basic concept of being able to wipe stuff at long ranges should either apply to both sides or to no side at all).

Make the Brummbär more expensive and revert the range to 40. It should be an option to seriously hurt your opponents infantry and achieve breakthroughs. Currently it's just a more clumsy Ostwind that also can't even deflect shots reliably.

I think it's ridiculous that the Brummbär is nerfed because it could reliably fight AT guns, yet the KV8 is perfectly fine tackling multiple Paks.


Yes about isu and balance team inconsistencies. Why is that tank have better speed and rear armor than elefant? Why is flanking so less rewarding for axis players?

Wehr player basically have to react with elefant doc against it.

While isu provide both AT and AI.

And long range wipes hurt wehr most. 4 man squad, weapon team reliance, pak is their only 60TD..

Like i said, balance team is too concentrate to provide hard counters to wehr since its the base design. I think now is good time to review for Wehr instead against Wehr

31 Oct 2019, 01:40 AM
#76
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1072

I think killing elefant with Soviet is easier than Wehr killing ISU. Do you all agree?

Throw 2 t34 for flank/ram and snipe with su85. And besides the snares available for penal OR cons. Sov has other AT like mark vehicle, AT bombs.

Isu also more able to defend against infantry.

This is impact of focusing on balance design against Wehr

For Wehr, if you dont have elefant or ju doctrine, you are in for long game. Shit son will need double panthers or hope your team mate is okw
31 Oct 2019, 03:44 AM
#77
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3685 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 01:40 AMmrgame2
I think killing elefant with Soviet is easier than Wehr killing ISU. Do you all agree?

Throw 2 t34 for flank/ram and snipe with su85. And besides the snares available for penal OR cons. Sov has other AT like mark vehicle, AT bombs.

Isu also more able to defend against infantry.

This is impact of focusing on balance design against Wehr

For Wehr, if you dont have elefant or ju doctrine, you are in for long game. Shit son will need double panthers or hope your team mate is okw

Idk. It's definitely easier to kill an isu as Ost if you use an elefant...
31 Oct 2019, 04:46 AM
#78
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 526

I can't believe people are saying the pwerfer or panther are bad...

There are old videos of imperial Dane complaining that old terminator obers are bad or the jagdpanzer is UP and useless back before when it had crazy vet that let you double tap tanks from camo with the ridiculous vet bonuses the JP had. Back when the Churchill was king and the comet couldn't hit a barn door due to nerfs dane would "analyze" the play of Jove or Hans and say the reason they lost is because they didn't build comets... Lol

Take anything Dane says with a pinch of sauerkraut, because he is no better than the average poster here. Actually I would go as far as saying the local flame warriors are more knowledgeable about unit stats.
31 Oct 2019, 07:48 AM
#79
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2202 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 01:29 AMmrgame2
[isu] Why is that tank have better speed and rear armor than elefant?


Maybe because the ISU-152 does not completely zone out every single piece of armor in a 70 range radius and doesn't have 400 frontal armor so that it doesn't need to have as big a weakness to getting flanked to offer at least some form of counter play?
31 Oct 2019, 08:19 AM
#80
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1072

Yes but i don't agree with this pov.

Take out elefant and 340 front armor of isu is able bounce all other wehr units. Isu also has 70 range and deal more hp damage than wehr units except elefant. It can frontally pen panther.

As highlighted, sov have more options to kill elefant even without ISU. It is easier to throw 2 t34, with good effect, than 2 P4 or even P5.

I don't agree with zone out too. It is 1 canon or 2 if both Wehr chose it(unlikely). Elefant canon is slow and well slow. Different from allies 60TD since you can field at least 2 each in 2v2.

I mean yes elefant is good mobile big pak, but hardly enough to zone out, at least in 2v2 i play. Just do a rush of t34 or sherman and i got to back padel hard

Like i said, killing elefant is easier than isu these days
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