When Tiger calls in, Allies probably have vet2 60TD...
Panther is also bad, not just moving accruacy but slower turret turn-lock.
KV1 KV8 and ISU152 are tanky but Ost counter is not as effective as to Allies counter to Tigers. Despite the higher costs.
IIRC KV1 is rather cheap and can be multiple units....
The Tiger has literally the best ROF of any tank in and below it's class. You have to go as far back as the Valentine and Sherman76 to level out or sligthly surpass it's ROF.
I would hate to drift of topic specific unit but I have to point out:
Pistol should be fixed and have range 35
Commissar comes with HE grenade
Veterancy bonus are hardly the same:
but I pointed out Commissar has the same XP value as Ostheer officer that is allot weaker in combat.
If you want to debate this issue more I can start a separate thread.
The veterancy is not the same at every level, but taking all of them together they are pretty equal.
Comparing them on vet to vet level and then giving "points" to define who "wins" the veterancy tournament does not make much sense, especially here since the SO still follows the old OKW principle of vet4/5 giving strong combat bonusses.
Fact is, units with higher DPS also need higher veterancy, otherwise they will skyrocket from 0 to 3 in no time. And additionally to this rule of thumb, other factors like timing and utility of a squad have to be taken into account. It is hard to say whether a single unit in faction 1 absolutely must get buffs to veterancy because a somewhat similar unit in faction 2 has it better.
SO though has better starting DPS which the Commissar can equalize once reaching vet 3 (at least according to the serealia site). Once the SO gets buffs though (and the additional man already is a DPS buff), it stays ahead in DPS.
At least judging by that, it is not surprising that the SO also has higher vet requirements, because it can deal more damage at basically all stages and therefore vet faster.
You're right, but IMO all factions only need 3 AT options - tank destroyer, AT gun, infantry AT. Infantry AT should counter tank destroyer, AT gun should priority counter medium and than heavy, tank destroyer should counter priority counter heavy/medium.
You're right in that unit variety would change, but I don't think it would have to be sacrificed. For example, you could have Axis AT guns fire slower but have higher penetration, making them stronger against heavies and weaker against mediums (the Rak 43/Panzershreck actually had really high penetration). Allied AT guns could have less penetration but higher fire rate. In order to compensate for heavily-armored Axis tanks, they could toggle between standard AP and APDS/HVAP; APDS and HVAP slow down the fire rate of the AT gun, and could cost a small amount of munitions per shot if necessary. Similarly, for tank destroyers you'd be able to differentiate between light TDs and heavy TDs. StuG III, Achilles, and Wolverine fall under this category. If I had developed the game, I would have nerfed the SU85 penetration and made it a light TD, while using the SU100 as a non-doctrinal heavy TD with good frontal armor, extremely high peneration (~211 mm at 500 m with APBC), and fast speed, but slow reload rate like the Firefly. Since SU-76 doesn't do a good job of filling the gap between AT power, either SU85 would be made a stock light TD or T34/85 would be a stock upgrade option on the T34, giving a solid counter to medium tanks (after all, Soviets only have 14 units compared to 15 of the other factions). USF wouldn't really need a major change; IRL the Jackson had better fire rate than the Firefly and SU-100 (but worse penetration, not that it really matters on anything smaller than a King Tiger), and was actually pretty slow (26 mph). If need be, the M18 or M10 could have been made a stock light TD.
Anyway, these are all just ideas that I've been mulling over for some time. Such radical changes aren't needed in the current state of the game, although maybe they could prove useful in a mod or a future CoH, if one ever comes.
Even on the theoretical level of "what we could do if we had infinite patches coming up" I don't think it is a good idea to specialize ATGs to anti-heavy units. They are the earliest AT unit a faction can field and they need to be generalists to allow for combacks in case one player gets locked out of fuel or looses his tank early. In the current rooster, especially OST relies on them to counter light vehicles, but also OKW T1 builds absolutely rely on them. Similarly, OST's LV's potency would skyrocket until the Allied LV shows up. There must be an MP based counter to basically everything that can be fielded to ensure that the match is not automatically won or lost if one player destroys the other players expensive tank destroyer.
I also don't see the real point of the SU100 apart from flavor. SOV already has the light and heavy TD combination. It's just the design of the SOV early mid game that screws over the SU76 and forces you to buy a T70. Yes, SU100 could take the heavy TD place and SU85 downgrade to the light TD, but in the end this would just be name changes to the existing system (unless I completely misunderstood your point).
This whole chain of ideas was sparked by getting two Shermans and/or the Jackson into a better spot, but here I'd argue that it is better to redesign the Shermans instead of changing the sholw faction setup.
And slight excursion: I think Ostheer has the best designed and most interesting AT setup in the game. An exceptional ATG for all game stages, the 222 for the very early game, a StuG to counter mediums, Panther for heavies and Schrecks for everything in between.
This offers so many tactics. Beefy combo with Panther, high firing volume with StuGs and a PaK for the punch. Potentially flanking Schrecks. And many of those units have a form of stun shot that rewards good micro but punishes misclicks. All other factions play very linearly in their AT department, but Ostheer is quite refreshingly different.
And to come back to topic: this tank switching has been discussed before. Although it's interesting, this won't happen anymore. But with the current state of their ATG, USF definetely needs the Jackson or any kind of high pen TD, otherwise they will be utterly screwed. The other Shermans however should get more distinct roles, although this is mostly only doable if we get a guaranteed two patches...
Not saying we should rework anything, but if we had to, we should make all TDs (including Panther) high range, high pen, high accuracy, but slow reload, while mediums should be lower pen, less range, less accuracy, but fast reload, so a pair of mediums can force back a TD that doesn't retreat.
Apsrt from reload times this is already how it generally works.
But you also should not forget that TDs often function a bit differently in factions. For USF the TD is their onlyreal AT unit, UKF only needs the Firefly against the heaviest targets because they already have the Comet, and SOV are somewhat in between but usually also need an SU85 (in team games at least).
Axis factions however have a dual setup with a 'light' TD version and the heavier Panther. Giving both the same treatment does destroy unit variety.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only difference between them a marginally better reload speed of KV-1?
Yes, that's at least a 10% buff to the gun.
My point is more that it is quite embarrassing to mock lack of stat knowledge to rip on people and then not even being correct in it yourself.
What do u mean by distribution curve? Since we have the probability of pene already in already in pene/armor.
Every shot is a coin toss. The real hit chance is impossible to calculate due to the lack of knowledge about in game hit boxes, but the penetration chance is easy. Both follow Bernoulli distributions though.
To make it short: although the expectancy values like in your formula are good indicators, they don't give the full picture. A glass cannon tank with 100% pen chance that can only take one hit dueling a beefy tank with 10% pen chance that can take 10 shots will still lose in >60% of cases, although their expectancy value is exactly the same - 10 shots to kill the enemy
Yes, it will, that goes without a question.
But its firepower is not the reason why.
I find it hilarious you can't see it, so let me draw you a clearer picture:
It got the same firepower as T34/76.
If T34 does not have enough firepower to beat P4, neither does another unit with EXACT SAME GUN, so the reason for different outcome is CLEARLY NOT FIREPOWER, like... there is maybe some difference between KV-1 and 34/76 that is not firepower?
Check your excel sheets, maybe you'll find hints on actual reason why one of these tanks almost always loses and other almost always wins despite having the exact same firepower on both.
I am not sure what you are arguing about. Vipper said it is sufficient to win if the P4 decides to slug it out, there's nothing wrong about it. He did not say it is due to a great gun or whatever, he said it is sufficient to pen the P4 often enough to win the engagement. You're just trying to pick a fight, but this is a quite pointless one.
Also you should check an excel sheet yourself once in a while. You now twice stated (even in capital letters for further mockery) that the KV1 has exactly the same gun as the T34 which is not even correct.
One of the problems with the KV-1 (as many other units) is that it get the complete wrong vet bonuses:
Vet1
Unlocks the "Hull Down" ability.
Vet 2
+35% weapon rotation speed. +30% reload speed.
Vet 3 +20% reload speed. +20% rotation speed. +20% maximum speed.
It durability should simply be move to its veterancy since vet bonuses should help the unit in its role.
The Vet1 fits pretty perfectly.
Moving it's durability to veterancy would require a complete rework of the unit including pricing. Soviets already have a lot of squishy tanks, adding yet another one that just gets beefier over time does not add too much to the faction. The general design of the KV1 is good, it just needs a couple of adjustments in my opinion. I find it slightly too durable for what you pay for, especially combined with a SU85.
Vet often improves the role or irons out some weaknesses (like StuG side skirts), but in this case I would say the KV1 should not get any beefier or Axis would have real issues for a relatively cheap tank. I think the reload speed veterancy is not that bad and mainly improves the role as infantry support due to the bad penetration.
Yes, maybe there could be a bit better vet, but overall it's not completely wrong.
"Slow as fuck" is a slight hyperbole. I was mostly reffering to the acceleration that ensures you to catch a couple of shots if you picked the wrong engagement. Similar to German heavy tanks (actually it is pretty comparable to the Tiger in terms of mobility). But that's not the focus of the tank anyway, the focus is being tanky.
KW1 is bit of a joke. It should have a lot of HP to fullfill its tanky role, but its armor is way too high. This should be decreased.
You also have to mention its Vet1 ability to dig in, which doesn't even needs any infantry unit to do so (in contrast to OST Hull Down ability).
=> So, lower its armor, increase its HP to 880. Then it can sustain 1 more shot and KW1 should be fine.
I agree that at least the rear and possibly also the frontal armor (or alternatively the rotation speed) should be slightly lowered. Increasing the health as you suggested will do nothing. The KV-1 already gets a damage modifier of 0,8 I believe, so it can take 6 hits plus faust. The additional 80 health would just remove the ability to kill it with a faust.
Another option could be to shift damage modifiers to the veterancy ability. So -10% standard (or maybe -8% so it stays faustable, otherwise it might survive with literally 8 health) and move the rest to the veterancy ability for the total -36% it would get now at vet1 in the hull down.
Broken for me too. Also I am new to this, can this stats depiction be used in actual official automatches? Since it consists of make changes to internal files I believe it incorporates the vet details into the live game.
Yes it can be used without issues.
This "mod" just changes one single file which is the file that contains all text strings in CoH2. It basically just exchanges a couple of those strings, nothing more.
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