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russian armor

So...my Tiger kept bouncing against a KV-1

29 Sep 2020, 01:18 AM
#1
avatar of Sp33dSnake

Posts: 149

Something like 420 mp/180 fuel vs. 620 muni/250 fuel.

Would like to hear the explanation for that.

'Tiger OP'

Yeah, whatever. And no, I didn't try to flank with it. My fatass could outrun the Tiger.

Sorry, just pissed off. Even had a pair of PG's with Schrecks and could absolutely do nothing.
29 Sep 2020, 02:54 AM
#2
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

I believe KV can bounce only at long range, and with a bit of luck at med range. But on the other note, Tiger penetration is worst that one of a Panther not my much but still. If you need heavy AT tank, Tiger isn't really best deal.
29 Sep 2020, 06:14 AM
#3
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

I believe KV can bounce only at long range, and with a bit of luck at med range. But on the other note, Tiger penetration is worst that one of a Panther not my much but still. If you need heavy AT tank, Tiger isn't really best deal.


so...ost will need a Pak43? even a pak40 bounce regularly on the kv series. stug is bad and only panther has better chance, but will miss more.

kv1 with it dmg reduction bonus has a very good survival chance to come back, when over extent.
29 Sep 2020, 06:28 AM
#4
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 176

Both Stug & Pak has around 180 Pen. They're great vs core Medium and T34-85 E8 ect.

But KV, iirc has 230 armor, at long range their chance to bounce is pretty much 1/3 of the time.

Tiger is nothing but Panther that able to take another ATround and have AoE gun.

As a former Allies main, Im afraid to see a Panther than a Tiger. As Panther can chase down and have longer range, Tiger cant
29 Sep 2020, 06:49 AM
#5
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3102 | Subs: 2

/moved to the gameplay section since as OP states, this is more of a rant than focussed balance discussion atm.



To topic:
OST has not really a unit to very reliably deal with heavy armor except of course the Elefant. That's why Comets and Churchills are/were super popular as well. KV1 has 270 armor, Panther has 220 far and 240 mid penetration, PaK40 190/200. So Panther is the only unit that can somewhat reliably deal with the KV1's frontal armor, while the PaK is also a good choice because of its range. The KV1 is slow as fuck and you will get a lot of shots off while the KV1 enters and leaves the cone at snail speed. Especially when you can stun him. Another plus for the PaK is the KV1-SU85 combo. While your Panther will get shot and penned by the SU85 when attacking the KV1, the PaK stays basically untouchable.

My favourite though is the OKW P4 vs KV1 matchup. None of these tanks have a real chance to kill each other and the fight goes on forever.
29 Sep 2020, 07:49 AM
#6
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

240/220/200 pen vs 270 armor. That's 89%/81%/74% chance to pen.

So must've been either a very bad RNG streak or observer bias.
Anyhow the KV-1 is meant to be tanky, it's pretty much its sole purpose.


If you need heavy AT tank, Tiger isn't really best deal.

The Tiger's DPM is one of the highest in the game, which easily compensates its somewhat lower penetration. Combined with great effective accuracy (due to low scatter), good mobility and the vet 2 range increase, it's easily Ostheer's best AT tool besides the Elefant. A vet 3 Tiger (range + ROF) can easily beat any other tank, and it's a lot more cost effective than the Panther because it also decimates infantry.
29 Sep 2020, 07:53 AM
#7
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 176

@Hannibal can u tell me whats the difference between Okw Pz4 and Ost Pz4?
29 Sep 2020, 07:57 AM
#8
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

@Hannibal can u tell me whats the difference between Okw Pz4 and Ost Pz4?


The OKW P4 (Ausf.J) has skirts from the start which give it a base armor value of 234, while the Ostheer P4 (Ausf.G/H) starts with 180 armor and gets 234 at vet 2. Besides that the J also has better scatter (so it's better versus infantry) and more/better veterancy bonuses.

In regards to Hannibal's comparison, the J's higher base armor means that the KV-1 can't really penetrate it frontally while the J can also not really penetrate the KV-1, so fights between these two usually end up in both just mostly bouncing off each other for a while.
29 Sep 2020, 08:11 AM
#9
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 176

I checked the stats and saw only better armor & another 2 bonus vet. I just cant believe it worth 20 more fuel though. So I asked again to make sure.

When I using Okw Pz4, I feel its really worthless, mostly because enemy use double TDs which mostly pen Okw Pz4 95%
29 Sep 2020, 08:26 AM
#10
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

...
Anyhow the KV-1 is meant to be tanky, it's pretty much its sole purpose.
...

KV-1 AI is great and it has enough AT to take out a PzIV if the PzIV decides to slug it out, so I do not quite agree that is sole purpose is to be "tanky".
29 Sep 2020, 08:34 AM
#11
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

/moved to the gameplay section since as OP states, this is more of a rant than focussed balance discussion atm.



To topic:
OST has not really a unit to very reliably deal with heavy armor except of course the Elefant. That's why Comets and Churchills are/were super popular as well. KV1 has 270 armor, Panther has 220 far and 240 mid penetration, PaK40 190/200. So Panther is the only unit that can somewhat reliably deal with the KV1's frontal armor, while the PaK is also a good choice because of its range. The KV1 is slow as fuck and you will get a lot of shots off while the KV1 enters and leaves the cone at snail speed. Especially when you can stun him. Another plus for the PaK is the KV1-SU85 combo. While your Panther will get shot and penned by the SU85 when attacking the KV1, the PaK stays basically untouchable.

My favourite though is the OKW P4 vs KV1 matchup. None of these tanks have a real chance to kill each other and the fight goes on forever.


Kw1 isnt this slow "as fuck".

Target size: 24 Sight: 35 Speed: 5.1 Accel: 1.6 Rotate: 30 Armor: 270/165 Health: 800

it is surprisingly good at mobility.
29 Sep 2020, 08:48 AM
#12
avatar of VonManteuffel

Posts: 97

KW1 is bit of a joke. It should have a lot of HP to fullfill its tanky role, but its armor is way too high. This should be decreased.

You also have to mention its Vet1 ability to dig in, which doesn't even needs any infantry unit to do so (in contrast to OST Hull Down ability).

=> So, lower its armor, increase its HP to 880. Then it can sustain 1 more shot and KW1 should be fine.
29 Sep 2020, 08:52 AM
#13
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

KW1 is bit of a joke. It should have a lot of HP to fullfill its tanky role, but its armor is way too high. This should be decreased.

You also have to mention its Vet1 ability to dig in, which doesn't even needs any infantry unit to do so (in contrast to OST Hull Down ability).

=> So, lower its armor, increase its HP to 880. Then it can sustain 1 more shot and KW1 should be fine.


even its rear armor should be decreased.
a kt or jgtiger has less rear armor
29 Sep 2020, 10:26 AM
#14
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2020, 08:26 AMVipper

KV-1 AI is great and it has enough AT to take out a PzIV if the PzIV decides to slug it out, so I do not quite agree that is sole purpose is to be "tanky".

It does not have enough AT to take out P4.... its exact opposite.
It has enough durability to outlast it.
It has exactly same gun as T34/76, which is inadequate against both P4 variants from the front.
29 Sep 2020, 10:46 AM
#15
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2020, 10:26 AMKatitof

It does not have enough AT to take out P4.... its exact opposite.
It has enough durability to outlast it.

A KV-1 will beat a PzIV and that is fact. Call it what you like but it has enough AT capability to beat a PzIV.

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2020, 10:26 AMKatitof

It has exactly same gun as T34/76, which is inadequate against both P4 variants from the front.

Since KV-1 will win with gun it has it adequate not inadequate.
29 Sep 2020, 10:46 AM
#16
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3102 | Subs: 2



Kw1 isnt this slow "as fuck".

Target size: 24 Sight: 35 Speed: 5.1 Accel: 1.6 Rotate: 30 Armor: 270/165 Health: 800

it is surprisingly good at mobility.

"Slow as fuck" is a slight hyperbole. I was mostly reffering to the acceleration that ensures you to catch a couple of shots if you picked the wrong engagement. Similar to German heavy tanks (actually it is pretty comparable to the Tiger in terms of mobility). But that's not the focus of the tank anyway, the focus is being tanky.

KW1 is bit of a joke. It should have a lot of HP to fullfill its tanky role, but its armor is way too high. This should be decreased.

You also have to mention its Vet1 ability to dig in, which doesn't even needs any infantry unit to do so (in contrast to OST Hull Down ability).

=> So, lower its armor, increase its HP to 880. Then it can sustain 1 more shot and KW1 should be fine.

I agree that at least the rear and possibly also the frontal armor (or alternatively the rotation speed) should be slightly lowered. Increasing the health as you suggested will do nothing. The KV-1 already gets a damage modifier of 0,8 I believe, so it can take 6 hits plus faust. The additional 80 health would just remove the ability to kill it with a faust.

Another option could be to shift damage modifiers to the veterancy ability. So -10% standard (or maybe -8% so it stays faustable, otherwise it might survive with literally 8 health) and move the rest to the veterancy ability for the total -36% it would get now at vet1 in the hull down.
29 Sep 2020, 10:52 AM
#17
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2020, 10:46 AMVipper

A KV-1 will beat a PzIV and that is fact. Call it what you like but it has enough AT capability to beat a PzIV.
Since ?KV-1 will win with gun it has it adequate not inadequate.

Yes, it will, that goes without a question.
But its firepower is not the reason why.
I find it hilarious you can't see it, so let me draw you a clearer picture:
It got the same firepower as T34/76.
If T34 does not have enough firepower to beat P4, neither does another unit with EXACT SAME GUN, so the reason for different outcome is CLEARLY NOT FIREPOWER, like... there is maybe some difference between KV-1 and 34/76 that is not firepower?

Check your excel sheets, maybe you'll find hints on actual reason why one of these tanks almost always loses and other almost always wins despite having the exact same firepower on both.
29 Sep 2020, 11:20 AM
#18
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2020, 10:52 AMKatitof

Yes, it will, that goes without a question.
But its firepower is not the reason why.
I find it hilarious you can't see it, so let me draw you a clearer picture:
It got the same firepower as T34/76.
If T34 does not have enough firepower to beat P4, neither does another unit with EXACT SAME GUN, so the reason for different outcome is CLEARLY NOT FIREPOWER, like... there is maybe some difference between KV-1 and 34/76 that is not firepower?

You can argue semantics as much as you like my point remain correct:
"(KV-1) has enough AT to take out a PzIV"

Pls stop spamming post trying to correct things that do not need correction, unless you want to argue that KV-1 will lose to PzIV.

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2020, 10:52 AMKatitof

Check your excel sheets, maybe you'll find hints on actual reason why one of these tanks almost always loses and other almost always wins despite having the exact same firepower on both.

Try fighting in CoH2 instead of fighting in a forum.
29 Sep 2020, 11:23 AM
#19
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


"Slow as fuck" is a slight hyperbole. I was mostly reffering to the acceleration that ensures you to catch a couple of shots if you picked the wrong engagement. Similar to German heavy tanks (actually it is pretty comparable to the Tiger in terms of mobility). But that's not the focus of the tank anyway, the focus is being tanky.


I agree that at least the rear and possibly also the frontal armor (or alternatively the rotation speed) should be slightly lowered. Increasing the health as you suggested will do nothing. The KV-1 already gets a damage modifier of 0,8 I believe, so it can take 6 hits plus faust. The additional 80 health would just remove the ability to kill it with a faust.

Another option could be to shift damage modifiers to the veterancy ability. So -10% standard (or maybe -8% so it stays faustable, otherwise it might survive with literally 8 health) and move the rest to the veterancy ability for the total -36% it would get now at vet1 in the hull down.


One of the problems with the KV-1 (as many other units) is that it get the complete wrong vet bonuses:
Vet1
Unlocks the "Hull Down" ability.
Vet 2
+35% weapon rotation speed.
+30% reload speed.
Vet 3
+20% reload speed.
+20% rotation speed.
+20% maximum speed.

It durability should simply be move to its veterancy since vet bonuses should help the unit in its role.
29 Sep 2020, 11:36 AM
#20
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515

Can we get another thread "My Jackson kept bouncing Elefant and Jagdtiger" or "My SU85 kept bouncing Panther" or "My T70 kept bouncing OST P4"?
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