Profile of Hannibal

222 become build able instead of upgrade. The old mu upgrade was bad but removing 221 was a mistake. 222 could become an upgrade cost manpower/fuel or separate vehicle. Then i could be delay and 221 could be a soft counter to micro light and hard counter to sniper. In addition 222 followed the rest of light vehicles and received a buff to accuracy via veterancy in every vet level.

WC51 received several buff mostly during DBP (if I remember correctly).

Really, from when are these changes? I checked the most recent changelog page that dates back to 2018 and nothing of this is on there.
Do you really want to argue that something that happened over 2-3 years ago is the reason we see a drastic change of meta just "now"? That does not make any sense. If these strats/units were so OP, players would likely have discovered them ages ago.


But to be honest, let's go back to topic. Elchino made a high quality post and put a lot of effort into it. It's worth discussing that one. If you want another WC2020 thread, open that one instead.

I agree with most of what Elchino posted, although it is hard to determine how all the changes at once play out. But the suggestions are at least reasonable and/or look promosing. I also agree that Soviets still have a weird teching split at the early game and the reliance on LVs to survive the mid game has also not been fully solved. The current changes of the balance team are mostly the right direction but don't really solve core issues in my opinion.

I'd like to add one suggestion that bugs me about Soviets: That their side tech is bullshit. It is either useless (molotov) or mandatory anyway that it is factually part of the main tech if you play Conscripts. The minimal choice that it gives is that you can have a chance to get your T70 out before teching AT nades, but often you get them earlier anyway. But it is rare teching them after the mid game has already started, unless maybe of absolute top level games. This "side tech" just does not give enough choice and bundling both side techs together does not solve the core issue. This is different from for example USF weapon upgrades or UKF/USF nades, which you can tech either very early or sometimes far into the mid-late game, depending on play style, unit and commander choice.

So I suggest another rework, either together or independent of Elchino's suggestions:
- Conscripts and Penals start with a weak stun nade once T1/T2 is up: Cheap, but only slows down (+ maybe blinds) the vehicle it hits. 0-40 damage.
- MAYBE: Conscripts get a molotov once T1/T2 is up, but lose their throwing speed vet to ensure this can only be used as garrison denial or to remove flanked MGs from their position.
- MR will not be free anymore, but comes with a small price. Globally upgrades Conscripts and Penals with reinforcement cost reduction and veterancy boost (just as it is now). No additional man for Conscripts or CD reduction.
- AT nade research allows an additional upgrade path for Conscripts: It exchanges the weak AT nade for the current one and replaces molotovs with standard grenades. This upgrade is mutually exclusive with MR upgrade on a squad level.
- MR upgrade on a squad grants 7th man plus CD reduction (bonusses between base version and upgrade can be shuffled of course).

-> Conscripts would have two different layouts: offensive or defensive
-> snare number of Soviet Conscripts builds would be slightly reduced (currently they have often have 4, only OKW can field a similar amount). Penal builds would gain stun nades and reduce reliance on Guards, M42 AT guns and PTRS upgrade in the late game to get any form of snare.
-> The fact that MR is not free anymore could allow for slight changes of other tech costs.

One could rebalance Penals by reducing their cost from 280mp to 270mp but compensating with replacing 4 SVTs with Conscript mosin nagants.

That would be 10 MP off for -25% of DPS and result in quite a nerf. Also most recent note says they cost 290 or did I miss something?

Yet the early face game has become about light vehicles instead of infatry. Will all saw the WC2020 being about WC51 and 222 which is not healthy.

I think that is more due to Osttruppen strat being so effective at the moment and USF dodge truck strat being one of the very few ways to counter the early game pressure.

Welp, I understand the frustration, yet this is how it goes in any game with randoms when there is no punishment to leaving.

Best advise is to invite randoms that you played with well as steam friends, and then have a group of people that you can set up proper games with.

np. But no worry. I will not tell relic to remove maps and make the mappool even smaller.

2v2 Road to Kharkov all day every day. Remove all the rest.

Or better don't tell them, April 1st is not too long anymore...

And that simply make grenadier the "least cost efficient infantry", so from now we should repeat in every thread that grenadier is "least cost efficient infantry".

By themselves in a vacuum? Yes, maybe. What Grens are bad at at the beginning is stopping squads from just running up to them.
In their faction? No, that's why they get the MG42 as support.

Aren't USF and UKF the "only" (2/3) allied factions that have it? While I do not think that any of the mainline/elite infantry is in any way OP or UP (from conscripts to obers or 5men grens), the molly/AT nade in conscripts seems out of place, especially since you absolutely positively need the engineers with flamethrowers early on to counter possible strong buildings placements. Right now, the current version of the patch, where both upgrades are in one seems like a good option. Can be a bit infuriating that you need to bring your combat engies to the frontlines just to displace MG42s, whereas grens can do that from a safe distance with the natural rifle nade (or considering the fact that maxim is in a tier building, and poor at suppression, don't even need to)

Grens are completely fine, general V is delusional at best, thinking that grens are in any way, shape or form UP, so I'd completely ignore those boring repeats. They fit nicely overall in OST. Would be nice to see them have extra damage vs suppressed units or some sort of "defensively-offensive" buff if you catch my drift. To further the notion of a defensive mainline unit. Especially with the defensive vet buff it gets to be viable in late game teamgames.

I am not sure what your point is.
My point was that simply adding any tech cost to a squad is naive at the very best. I could arbitrarily split 20 fuel of the cost of BP1 to the riflenade or 20 from any of the OKW tech to Panzerfaust unlock, because that is my perceived value of it. I mean, I get it as a benefit together with access to other units. If I rush any unit, let's say a medium tank, do I add up all the tech and build costs and then use it for performance comparison vs other tanks? Why does my T34/76 not wreck that frickin' Tiger (at least before heavies were bound to tech)?
That's how I assume people must think that add tech cost to units. At least it would explain some of the forum posts and suddenly other weird stuff looks surprisingly "normal".
The alternative obviously that we just don't. Because it does not make any sense.