Jaeger Armor is the biggest issue because of how much it brings to the table, and it will get a nerf in the upcoming patch (Stuka Dive Bomb will be switched out for Stuka AT Strafe) along with the ISU commander nerfs. If it's up to me, it would also lose its self spotting with the spotting scope next patch so you actually need to accompany it with a scout unit.
Yes I agree. I am quite interested in what the next patch will bring, but I also think a lot of issues are at least partially related more to map design than actual balance.
I am looking forward to which and how commanders will be reworked. |
hm... nerf ISU, than Elefant and Jagdtiger arn't needed anymore and can be nerfed too, because there is no need form them. For me, my team doesn't use these units anymore. Jagdpanzer4 and PaK40 is all I need.
Actually I think some of this could potentially be done already this patch.
ISU gets its HE shell nerfed to range 60 which was it's main strength. I think JT and Ele could get some minor nerfs (probably armor) as well. But let's see. They might still be part of the next patch that works on commanders and commander units.
It was direct response to a quote,an analogy. The situation of Soviet vs Elefant/JT is similar to Axis vs allied TDs.
As for JP4 it can zoned allied TDs but taking them is another story.
As long as Allied TDs are so cost efficient Elefant and JT will also need to be strong.
Axis do have options, it's just that Ele and JT are the safest and most efficient ones.
A JP4 can't get zoned by Allied TDs because they have the same range. And the only unit that can get away quickly is the Jackson. The moment of surprise will give you enough of a headstart already that the SU85 takes a long time to break even and get away. |
True, but OKW does not have this problem due to JP4 and for ost, sending recon, barraging ATGs with indirect and just moving in with panthers and inf is perfectly viable alternative that works, at least in 2s.
I am not agreeing with Vipper's general point, but the map design in large modes absolutely dictates you to pick 1 or 2 commanders, otherwise you have lost. It is good that you have to adjust your playstyle to the maps, but in many cases it is a bit too much.
Ostheer mostly relies on Panthers though in the late game since PaKs regularly get eaten by arty to (best case) reset the veterancy or worst case destroy the whole thing.
...
Your personal quarrels with Vipper fit better into a PM.
In what I agree though is that an Ele/JT is by far the most reliable way to shut down Allied TDs, PaKs are always vulnerable and JP4s only awayable to OKW plus they will need constant repairs, whereas you can safely take pot shots with an Elefant and win on the micro game and repair less than others. That's why it is overly popular. |
JP4 hardcounters all allied TDs.
Ost doesn't struggle either, especially with PGs new vet1, allowing them to easily assist any mechanized push, unless you play exclusively on long, linear maps.
To be fair though it is impossible to avoid those "long, linear" maps in any mode but 1v1. 2v2 has/had probably the worst amount of this type, but there are plenty of maps in other modes as well where Ele and JP fare exceptionally well. These are not even the linear ones only. |
Genuine Proposal:
What about whist ability is active the units cloak while in cover and can move at 1.2 movement speed.
This way it adheres to the voice line, but offers an interesting but counterable playstyle, I'd have a tooltip pop up for enemy too so they knew that there was infantry moving along cover points at 1.2x speed to flank you.
Would certainly be more interesting than removing unit icons from the map.
I like that idea.
+1 from me. Fixes basically all of the issues that this ability has. |
While you are not wrong, the axis don't really have any other answer to Allied TDs than Elefants and JTs.
Panther is strong in team games. And OKW has the JP4 that is tailored towards countering TDs.
But some of the heavy tanks are still a mess right know, in 3v3+ it's Elefant, JT and ISU all day every day. |
There aren't any rests you need to bother with, really. The spreadsheet i provided has all the information you need to do calculations as to how effective 20% DR is vs 160 damage tank cannons.
Those tests are quite important. However I think what would matter more is the time until both squads are down to 2 models, because that's about the time when players would retreat them.
The effect of RA on direct hits that you mentioned accounts for realistically 2-3% of all shots. In total the effect of getting about 30% RA bonus (that's what most infantry gets) translates into less than 1% of all shots (and technically then again minus the chance of a shot OHKing anyway because it scattered into the model by pure chance). And to put that again into perspective: If you have a game with 15 engagements where a medium shoots 4 shots at infantry, you will see one incidence of RA bonus making a difference every second game. On the other hand, you will see the damage reduction make a difference on safe to say every game.
And regarding the DA:
It also means that the OHK radius of an AP-shell Sherman is reduced from 0,88m to 0,78 meters or about 11%.
A purely mathematical approach for the main gun could also be that the OHK radius of a P4 vs Riflemen covers 7,6% of the P4s scatter area per model. For Sherman- vet3 VSL Grens it is 4,5%. If all models stand apart and are fully in the scatter area, it gives a very rough estimation of how likely it is that a standing medium snipes a particular full health model (plus the chance of rolling a direct hit, which adds another ~2%).
EDIT:
Just dug out this old post of mine: https://www.coh2.org/topic/105637/preview-towards-quantifying-aoe-alpha-damage
This data basically shows (in a slightly too quirky way, could have done it better) how much damage the very first shot on a Rifle/Volks squad is probably going to do. It does neglect direct hits and damage on already pre-damaged squads.
Last spoiler is a small comparison of medium tanks. I should have some data lying around for Grens, but not for VSL grens. |
Well it's not really reacting to a playstyle, it's having to change your micro style to be less handicapped, which is a lose-lose situation because any micro style which isn't your main style (say from tacmap to sidescrolling) is gonna be worse.
Simply said, opponent clicks a button and wishes you good luck at coping with a large part of your UI being hardly usable at reading information.
To me that doesn't seem about who's the better player anymore, but about handicapping the other player's ability to play, and I find it cringeworthy to watch, to use and to endure.
After watching Quiritz losing multiple squads to it or Luvnest losing multiple squads to it (referring to games I saw in the tourney), am I going to tell them to learn to play or try harder?
Changing how they use their units won't change much if their micro style just doesn't give them enough information on how to use them while Radio Silence is active.
It's not like Osttruppen or Mechanized meta, picking another faction or another doctrine isn't going to help you if you're a tacmap user.
No, it's the ONLY ability in the game that requires to rewire how you navigate around the game and that is NOT at all about strategy and has VERY little reason to exist in rts. I cannot say the better player won if the winning player used this ability in a match, it's anti-competitive.
I already said in a previous thread that it comes down to how we see the use of tac map: Do we see it as an equivalent play style to "normal" view or not?
I personally think that using tac map is an active choice. Players trade general overview for less situational overview. If you fully rely on it than that's a gamble, just like fully relying on the normal screen can cause you to lose awareness as well. If players are only capable of doing one playstyle only than they make themselves vulnerable.
Out of interest since you obviously disagree with me:
How do you think about abilities like the spy network and others that enhance the mini map/tac map view? While not 100% comparable, those abilities also alter the usage of UI for one play style only. |
I think the ability is unique and mostly fine. It just shouldn't be available constantly. Cost, duration and/or cooldown nerfs would be enough for me. If it could only be used once every ~5 minutes rather than every 2 minutes, the ability would still be great to play into (similar to saving up for a strafe and using it while attacking) while giving the opposing player a better chance to play around it. Hang back / retreat / play safe during the 30-60s it's active, then have at least another 5 minutes to play regularly. Similar to strafes or other global buff abilities.
I'm against removing or heavily adjusting a totally unique ability. In my opinion the game should have (had) more psychological warfare abilities, not fewer. It makes the game more exciting when players can choose to use indirect abilities rather than just brute force.
I agree that there are very few gameplay changing abilities in CoH2. However I disagree that we should keep the ability as is, because the design is bad. Even if we neglect what happens at top level play (which is obviously not representative for 95% of the player base), half of this ability won't work or at the very least you do not know if it will work or not, because you don't know if the random opponent you got actually uses the tac map or not.
If we want to focus solely on competitive play, then I agree. As I said we can expect players to not use tac map for a while, but then I also think that a small announcement would possibly be in order. Tac map players already have the "damage" of needing to adjust and being over-microed during the ability. It might remove some of the cheese of the ability while still keeping it functional.
But as I said, I don't think this ability is well designed at all, since outside of the top % of players that know each other and each others play styles, you don't know if half of the ability will work at all and therefore you can't really bet on it. It is highly inconsistent and this inconsistency should be removed. |
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In my opinion we can expect top level players to adjust to a different playstyle for the duration of the ability. But I agree that there is no counterplay, since there is also no announcement. A bandaid fox could be to add some kind of hint for the opposing player, however that would look like.
Personally though I'd like to see a rework for the sole fact that this ability performs so much differently between skill levels. For low level play, it moght almost be useless apart from the speed buff. And in random games, you have no idea if the ability has the intended effect at all or not. |
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