The team opted to exclude the Puma, the AEC and the Panther because they deal decent AI damage.
Though I would personally like to see them added too.
Thanks for the quick answer.
But prioritize vehicles does not disable MGs, or was anything changed?
If some other people here of the community agree with me, would you please pass forward to the rest of the team to add the Panther as well? First, the gun's damage is quite abysemal, second, the setting should be set to where the unit performs best in. And nobody buys a Panther to use the gun for shooting at infantry.
I don't want to blow this out of proportion since it is a rather small change overall, but it will be hella confusing if SU85 and JP4 have it but Panther not.
Especially because has literally the AoE of a SU85 with higher scatter, or abysmally better AoE than a JP4 with the same scatter (see below, in first picture the line of SU85 is directly below the Panther and therefore not visible).
I just hope that road to Kharkov is on the list.
It's not a bad map per se, but it should be a bit broader and the cut offs on the road should be slightly better placed.
I might be slightly late to the party but is Panther not included as "default priotirize vehicles" on purpose or was it just forgotten to add it to the list?
General Gawain, testing in green cover requires more tests because the fights are more decided by who randomly drops a model first and less by who is actually better.
At least compared to Stg Volks, Penals deal more damage if both squads lose models equally until both squads lose about 3 man where things get roughly even. An actual comparison is more complicated since Penals also lose models a bit quicker, but I think it is safe to say that it is not their damage that makes them the subpar choice compared to Conscripts.
Penals firepower is all they bring to the table. Their firepower alone doesn't really do anything if you bring them in fresh during the lategame. Most other infantry squads have some alternative ability that make the units usefull even when they are at low vet. Pgrens get nuke grenades, conscripts have snares etc. These abilites are good enough to justify the bleed you are going to get from them when they face vetted troops. Penals on the other hand have a short range nade with 3 second fuse which is cool for youtube clips but are easily completely dodged by anyone slightly awake. So there isn't really a reason to get them lategame as they are now.
Yes I agree with this.
My original post was only to make clear to Katitof why I disagree with his claim that pre-MR Conscripts and current Penals were in a similar situation and should therefore get the same treatment. And secondly that I also disagreed with his conclusion that Penals are imbalanced because they lack a weapon upgrade.
But since this topic seems to reach a little further:
As you also say, Penals do not lack in combat power, they lack utility/a feature apart from raw damage. Maybe just more efficient trading could do the trick. Once they don't bleed so hard, Soviets are able to better back tech to T2 which already solved a lot of their late game issues.
You rebuild infantry only to cap, build sandbags and snares. Bonus points if you have special abilities or grenades.
My point with this was that, even with current design, Penals don't need an additional weapon upgrade or similar to boost their DPS. A Penal squad right out of the barracks is about as good as other mainline infantry with their weapon upgrade purchased. And no one complains about other mainlines being too weak if you rebuild them.
Conscripts on the other hand suffered a lot before Mobilized reserves, because both DPS and survivability were bad at vet0. Even cheap Conscripts were bleeding you heavily because it took them ages to get vet 2 due to low damage. All of this got adressed with Mobilized Reserves.
Saying that old Conscripts and Penals suffer the same problems and need the same treatment is in my opinion straight up wrong.
Yeah, scaling of one works, while other clearly not as evidenced by attempted changes.
Scaling of all other infantry somehow works and there is a common denominator here, specifically weapon upgrade.
And all of that refers to Rifles being the ONLY comparable mainline with Penals exactly... how?
You also seem to be under completely incorrect impression that penals are getting a vet buff.
They are not.
They are getting vet swap.
And I'm fine with them not having a snare, non upgraded ones shouldn't have it anyway, we already have cons for that, that was never a problem, no one sane complained about that and I don't know why you bring it up.
I did not discuss the current changes at all. The only thing I asked you is to explain how Rifles are "the only comparable unit in relation to sclaing" to Penals. I pointed out that they are not, because Rifles scale like any other mainline, unlike Penals.
Btw I also aske why M-42 is fine at size 16 because of 'real life reasons' while Raketenwerfer is not.
My point is that accuracy alone isn't everything.
Rifles more then make up for their lack of accuracy exactly through the weapon upgrades and potent defensive vet, but you aren't going to see it with just accuracy.
Veterancy is not accuracy increase exclusively, which makes vippers comparison post completely pointless and missleading(as usual).
Fully agree that comparing DPS alone only gives half the picture. Still this is now the first time you actually raise that point, you did not seem to have this specific issue when you commented. You are free to provide some form of survivability metric and set his points right.
Penals have exclusively vet and that was proven to be insufficient.
On top of that, penals are now LOSING some of that accuracy to get received accuracy that was TAKEN AWAY in the patch that introduced PTRS to them already, I consider this a token change that will achieve nothing, because being more durable in small arms firefight does not mean much, when you suddenly deal proportionally less damage too.
Yes yes I fully agree. Scaling of Rifles and Penals works very very differently.
We are literally walking with penals the exact same road we walked with cons.
The exact same one.
Because they suffer from the exact same problems cons did and we all pretend its a completely different case now somehow because why exactly? Because they have higher base stats? Duh, they also have much higher base cost.
The sole fact people attempt to compare their performance of much cheaper squads is a testament to their insufficient through vet scaling.
And again, one last time, they are NOT getting any vet buff this patch, they are getting stat swap, less accuracy for more durability, which will achieve nothing, because its NOT a buff.
Again, 300 MP is not "much cheaper" than 260 MP + 60 MUN. Or 280 MP plus 120 MUN. At least not at any rank above 2000 where people still float 500 muni.
Penals do not suffer the exact same way Conscripts did, this is why they STILL do not get a AI-weapon upgrade. Rebuilding a Penal in the late game gives you as much firepower as rebuilding a Volks and upgrading Stgs. They just bleed you like hell, hence the MP reinforcement reduction for the late game only and the vet change to better defensive vet.
Weapon profile, cost, how many you can field before your economy breaks completely, scaling(weapon upgrades+incredibly strong defensive vet vs strong offensive vet and squishiness as 2 opposing approaches to scaling basically the same baseline), both are balanced with very restricted and limited access to support weapons.
Tho I'm willing to listen why and how you would compare them to volks or grens, (both of which have a plethora of supporting units behind them from the early game) from someone who does not have raging hate boner against them.
You could stretch that to PFs, but PFs still benefit from wide array of supporting units with no restrictions and they themselves trade firepower for shitload of utility.
Half of your arguments reflect the early game. You specifically mentioned scaling, which has nothing to do with the early game.
Rifles vet like almost any other mainline infantry, Penals' feature is a 69% (eheheh) accuracy boost in exchange for less RA unlike basically ALL of the other mainlines. You even say that yourself and conclude that this makes them comparable? Also, Penal builds have fuck all snares unless you upgrade them and gimp their AI.
All other mainlines feature weapon upgrades, snare. Rifles are not as support starved as they you claim now for months. A 260 MP+60 MUN Volks squad is much closer price wise than a 280+120 Riflemen squad.
But still what is the point? Geblobt even did the maths for you for Rifles and vet3 Penals are still decent.
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