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russian armor

Canister shot

1 Dec 2014, 00:49 AM
#41
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384



At the stage of the game it arrives, it not even a matter of being 'caught out'. Drive round the flanks, annihilate squads, and drive away. Don't have the munitions? Keep doing it, because the ostheer player cannot afford to play chicken when every squad at that point of the game is worth so much.

Because it only takes a second for the shotgun to go off, you can have a pak positioned right in the retreat path and it makes not an iota of difference, because the greyhound doesn't need to chase or expose itself for any meaningful amount of time. Shoot and scoot, nothing in the ostheer arsenal is going to be able to deal with it at that stage of the game unless you overinvest in paks/222s. Having all the map awareness the game is not going to do anything, unless you suggest multicapping with three squads everywhere you go.


Get shot once driving up, get shot twice before cannister shot goes off. That's a dead greyhound to a Pak sir.



As above. Play a couple 1v1s as ostheer and you'll see that having 'light armor', paks, shrecks, and 222s is not something you can afford to invest heavily in early on.


As Ostheer I'm of the opinion that you should concentrate your forces as much as possible and pretty much buy every unit. 3 cp isn't exactly early in the game, either.



From what it sounds like, people expect the wehr player to deal with the M8 in a vacuum... which is fine, until you realize that you're facing 3 rifles + lieut + m20 / 4 rifles Captain camping buildings, and you're already at a big manpower loss because of the way teching works.


So he has a lieutenant, a greyhound, an m20 and a captain and you have what to show for 190 fuel? I'll grant you that 80 of your fuel is gonna go into teching, so what about the other 80?



Yes which is why they Nerfed the T70 back in the day. Early squad whipes not fun. Why they have repeatedly tweaked explosive profiles, why they have nerfed Arty again and again.

Squad whipes without a chance to react is against what the game is about. Now if it was running down the squad into the base pew pew pew style and whiped the squad thats another matter. But one shot KO is not cool.


Relic just does whatever the community wants. They don't seem to stand by their game design at all with this game. I still haven't forgiven them for slowing down the VP rates.

They cater to reactionaries, rather than proactives. You can avoid getting cannister shot by an m8 by having AT ready to pound it for coming too close, or a mine covering the retreat, But that would require preemptive play...
1 Dec 2014, 01:07 AM
#42
avatar of Strummingbird
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 952


Get shot once driving up, get shot twice before cannister shot goes off. That's a dead greyhound to a Pak sir.

Get shot once driving up, reverse, and wipe any harassing squad elsewhere? Unless you get a double pak and nuke the greyhound, which isn't exactly something you can afford to do for reasons stated


As Ostheer I'm of the opinion that you should concentrate your forces as much as possible and pretty much buy every unit.

I don't quite get this one, buy one of every unit?


So he has a lieutenant, a greyhound, an m20 and a captain and you have what to show for 190 fuel? I'll grant you that 80 of your fuel is gonna go into teching, so what about the other 80?

My bad, I mean Lieut/M20/Greyhound OR more rifles/Captain/Greyhound. Also, making the assumption that you will have equal map control to the USF player, as ostheer, is a bit of a long stretch.


They cater to reactionaries, rather than proactives. You can avoid getting cannister shot by an m8 by having AT ready to pound it for coming too close, or a mine covering the retreat, But that would require preemptive play...

I've mentioned before in the thread other reasons. either way, i'll make sure to pull out the greyhound if I meet you on automatch, i'd be glad to learn a thing or two about countering it if it's that easy. :P
1 Dec 2014, 01:09 AM
#43
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2807 | Subs: 6

what? canister shot actually do anything useful? i heard it's a waste of ammo! :snfBarton:

1 Dec 2014, 01:52 AM
#44
avatar of DakkaIsMagic

Posts: 403

You know the Shot doesn't go off instantly when you use it right?


Plenty of time for a Panzerfaust/Pak.
1 Dec 2014, 09:02 AM
#45
avatar of Rupert

Posts: 186

You know the Shot doesn't go off instantly when you use it right?


Plenty of time for a Panzerfaust/Pak.


You know that it still goes off faster than panzerfaust/pak aim/setup time right?

Plenty of time for it to wipe and run.

Just make the AOE small so it gets 3 models max and make it cheaper. Problem solved for both sides.
1 Dec 2014, 09:06 AM
#46
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 927

That it wipes full health and retreating squads is unacceptable but i guess for Relic its more important that "Every battle tells a story" than good balance ever is.
1 Dec 2014, 09:30 AM
#47
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

what? canister shot actually do anything useful? i heard it's a waste of ammo! :snfBarton:



Nothing is wrong here. Heavy blob = heavy punishment
1 Dec 2014, 10:03 AM
#48
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747

How one can defend this ability is beyond me. Wiping fullhealth squads with 90% guarantee even on retreat for 50 muni is just broken, period.
1 Dec 2014, 10:10 AM
#49
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1820 | Subs: 2

You know the Shot doesn't go off instantly when you use it right?


Plenty of time for a Panzerfaust/Pak.


If there is a pak, you can fend it off without getting canistered. But i can tell you that if you face m8 with only grens, then the canister fires faster than the faust does so you end up losing a squad or two.
nee
1 Dec 2014, 12:21 PM
#50
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

I might have missed the posted that suggested this, but perhaps make the Canister shot a vet1 ability? At least then squad wipes are only going to happen because you keep failing to shoot up that Greyhound which in the meantime can't do anything but try to vet up by popping 37mm rounds. Any USF player in that situation has to decide whether to save the munitions for once that ability is finally unlocked or go for something more useful like BARs and such, especially if there is a chance (or occurence) where the Greyhound is lost to enemy fire in the meantime.
1 Dec 2014, 17:41 PM
#51
avatar of MoBo111

Posts: 150



Nothing is wrong here. Heavy blob = heavy punishment


Everything else = still dead even if it's not blobbing.
1 Dec 2014, 18:03 PM
#52
avatar of Romeo
Honorary Member Badge
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5

vote here
1 Dec 2014, 18:09 PM
#53
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Dec 2014, 09:06 AMspajn
but i guess for Relic its more important that "Every battle tells a story" than good balance ever is.


Well put...

The story of the infamous terrible m8 greyhound that sends entire German infantry divisions into space with its ultra-nuke canister shot. Americans won the war the day after once half of the German army was in chunks orbiting the earth.
1 Dec 2014, 18:16 PM
#54
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1820 | Subs: 2

The veterancy idea is great!
1 Dec 2014, 18:27 PM
#55
avatar of ungodlike

Posts: 62

If the canister shot is tweaked so that it can still kill say a grouped half health squad(or at least kill half squad), while the main gun can do enough damage to infantry to be a threat while also allowing abit of time for the squad to retreat? would this be better? otherwise nerfing it too infinity is pointless.
1 Dec 2014, 18:59 PM
#56
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

If the canister shot is tweaked so that it can still kill say a grouped half health squad(or at least kill half squad), while the main gun can do enough damage to infantry to be a threat while also allowing abit of time for the squad to retreat? would this be better? otherwise nerfing it too infinity is pointless.


-Make it so each pellets doesn't instakill any unit hit by it
-Set X amount of damage and number of pellets.
-Add way MORE spread.
-Make it cheaper
-Improve main gun.
1 Dec 2014, 20:05 PM
#57
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Dec 2014, 12:21 PMnee
I might have missed the posted that suggested this, but perhaps make the Canister shot a vet1 ability?


Won't help, an OP Vet1 ability is still OP.
1 Dec 2014, 20:10 PM
#58
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

Buff main gun, probably rate-of-fire so it's like a less armoured T-70 and make canister not instant kill models. It's damage should maybe be between 40-60.

Giving it the Stuart main gun would result in miss,miss, dead as that thing does 80 damage, but lack the RoF which is more vital against infantry, especially in cover which is why T-70s beat out T-34 in the AI role generally.
1 Dec 2014, 20:49 PM
#59
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

Canister shot gibs obers so gotta be OP to kill OP am I right.
1 Dec 2014, 23:05 PM
#60
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Ok, I just tried it in 4v4 (many chances). I used canister 8 times. No squad wipe. Obers: 4->1 Osstruppen: 6->3 Grens: 4->3 etc. It can be powerful but it's definitely not 90% squad wipe.
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