People both Like and dislike the unit, both camps existing isn't going to be a reason to remove the unit. folks may want to attempt to disagree on the ST having an unsuccessfully history but thankfully relic doesn't seem to disagree from their own development statements. So if folks cant cede that there have been some borderline wacky choices and changes to a units real world history of success that's ok, no need to debate against stubborn refusal. Relic has done their homework (as id hope they did) and they are aware that they took those wack not very true to life route with units like the KT and Jagdtiger for an interesting product.
Some people want it some people don't, and again I don't think you can please everyone. I like to hear Relic reasoning that they want to weigh those previous inclusions that were fictional representations and use that going forward to make some new inclusions. And again the Skink would be a cool inclusion as since number don't matter to Relic, it would be a cool compatriot to the whirblwind and the Centurion would have seen the war if only the surrender hadn't come as it was shipped with the intent to do the same battlefield testing as Pershing. I'm glad relic didn't go full historical in COH otherwise it would have been a pretty limited franchise, we've seen some cool units and abilities that aren't true to their life nature. |
Yea I don’t mind it’s inclusion and it’s not just me, and there are people that don’t. I doubt everyone is going to be happy but I don’t see anything conclusive about this fiction compared to previous fictional representations, and relic states that in their of dev commentary. I mean we can argue against realities that some units got a re written past and yes it includes the sturmtiger and the JT and the KT if you like but I’m glad to hear relic won’t be arguing that they didn’t see some generous takes on their real life deployments and relic has a grasp on that. |
It’s not on me to manufacture a history to make a fictional take on its combat history, it’s on you to find more than one alleged instance it had a success. I’m leaning towards you’ll have a tough time manufacturing a history where the sturmtiger was a successful AFV. I don’t think anyone is under the illusion it was deployed in its intended role, it wasn’t but that doesn’t make it a success story either it was a failure.
So again it’s a fictional liberty that relic took for gameplay to come back to the thread discussion. The BP is the same move. If we are going to be so concerned the BP never shipped to the front line, the Centurion mark 1 only missed combat due to the surrender of the nazi regime. More simply put, if the old men and boys fought afew days longer you would have seen the centurion on the field, so maybe swap the model of the BP to it if that’s your historical fiction line. |
The one success that's out there is this alleged account it hit Sherman's, and after looking at it from the American cavalry as foggy accounts of it are it may have been because they hit them after missing another target not by targeting them at all.
I'm not providing any successful records of the ST as one there is only really this one alleged account and two, others don't exist so that's a pretty poor combat history. Could also be a misunderstanding of what kind of record I'm talking about, like a record of good attendance, as in a consecutive record of success. The kind of record that earned some vehicles more factual reputations.
The ST doesn't have a consecutive record of success, which is what I'm referring to by a record of poor performance, not an individual account. So its depiction again, is highly fictional. So my point still stands that relic takes fictional liberties where they please for gameplay, something they've stating in their own development commentary. |
The ST was not designed for "forcing battalion into retreat" it was designed fire support vs enemy strong position or in urban terrain.
As you can see in wikipedia though there at least one record of "wiping entire platoons":
"During this action, one of the Sturmtigers in Sturmmörserkompanie 1001 near Düren and Euskirchen allegedly hit a group of stationary Sherman tanks in a village with a 380mm round, resulting in nearly all the Shermans being put out of action, and their crews killed or wounded. This is the only tank-on-tank combat a Sturmtiger is ever recorded engaging in."
Lets be generous and drop the word allegedly for this record. To call the units combat history successful was again a large adventure in fiction. One alleged combat venture a success record or combat legend does not make. Hence the very discussion on how a units life was blown up into historical fiction, very generous treatment considering they had to record the one time it hit something that wasn't a city albeit allegedly.
Also in the sentence above it does mention a company of 7 sturmtigers failing to hit Remagen bridge, if that may lend an ear to the luck or legitimacy of the alleged hit. Again a generous fiction to make it as accurate and powerful as it is when it was likely luck or perhaps didn't occur.
Note : The Wiki for the Sherman company hit still needs citation on Wiki, hence has no written record provided on the Wiki. |
I don't think many people here are trying to "stick it to wheraboos" but if folks are going to argue the KT/JT/ST aren't overrepresented then id say you are fighting reality not being identified as a wheraboo. Thier representation is indeed fiction.
The sturmtiger is a failure in combat history, There isn't any record of it forcing battalions into retreat. No record of it wiping out entire platoons, striking fear into American/allied troops hearts. that's a pretty big fiction compared to its gameplay role where it does these things.
I think what some people here are trying to point out regardless of some axis and allies contest is that these fictions have occurred many times prior. This one is somehow earth shattering.
I do think its a pretty niche crowd who cant concede the idea that COH has taken these liberties in fiction before and perhaps it makes this discussion interesting on another level. I can see how the folks in that camp would have trouble with authenticity if they thought the game had been fairly factual and faithful to history up to this point, which would be concerning. |
Relic has re-written the history of vehicles before. Somehow we got a stock KT at 500 made and a doctrinal and now mostly relegated IS2 that is an infantry only wagon in a couple doctrines with some 3,000 built.
Why? Because they don't care about numbers.
For gameplay reasons Relic don't care about numbers or a units failed history in combat like the sturmtiger. They want interesting units. Again within historical fiction, what this product there isn't a special separation of the fiction of a useful sturmtiger and a deployed Black Prince both things didn't occur.
Relic is welcome to make the same fictional choices in their product. As others have pointed out this new shake of fiction sprinkles isn't going to spoil the fiction layer cake of COH 2 whose layers include KT/JT, useful sutrmtiger, stock IR halftracks, invincible stuka aircraft etc..
They don't care, and don't need to care about this tailored gatekeeping of historical (insert label trying to create new genre of fiction where prototypes are the line) because they have done this in all previous iterations of the franchise, created fictional events to make an interesting product. |
The unit is relevant to all the stretches on history the devs made on fictional depictions and representations of units for the sake of gameplay and balance. They discuss that in their own commentary on the new game.
It indeed may or may not be stranger but as the devs said in their own stream they weigh these choices such as for the way the KT and JT saw representation for the sake of said gameplay. The fact its a design based decision weighted to add to the game. Id call the unit not much stranger than the potential for a KT and JT to attend every MP match in COH2, whereas both units compatriots on COH1 required doctrine choices. I'm glad they're putting the same design reasonings used to make fictional representations of units or history to the products benefit.
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To me the fact relic is acknowledging that they feel they took a historical-fiction route overrepresenting the presence of the JT & KT alone shows that they understand that is just as much of a fiction as the BP and they did it for gameplay. I consider it a fiction that the ST is such an effective weapon at all in the game but its a gameplay choice they made for their product and both I and many others use it often so id call it a success.
There isn't two divisions of historical fiction either. It is just as fictional to see the stock KT stock IR halftracks, an effective sturmtiger, invincible stukas and entire squads with IR guns. Their chat on stream shows that they understand that for their own IP they've taken big liberties. I'm leaning towards their thinking that hey its time for another gameplay choice for the COH product that has not so often stuck to the lines off a history book. The statement of needing to be careful by them is also important as 3 games in a row of creating fictional histories for some axis units to make a faction, you may want to throw in an interesting gameplay unit for the allies to spice up the IP.
COH already being a historical fiction doesn't change now that they want to put in the BP, it was one before its presence and will remain one afterward. |
You can be obstinate to the point a few people are trying to express you if you wish, but relic have essentially admitted they know that their IP contains a lot of fiction. Such as the rarity of the KT and Jagdtiger however to improve gameplay and make a fun product they are a franchise staple of common appearance. They go on to state that this chapter isn't any different.
I mean id love to see the drone b17 bombers that were meant to blow up targets remotely, they did poorly but since they were used once it meets the threshold for inclusion that some are making. Since its ok to fictionalize the units performance it would be above the mark, even though they never once hit a target.
Just as there is very poor performance on the tactical history of the strumtiger but it was used in that role poorly or not and its been given a fantastic gameplay place, regardless of being highly fictional.
That is the point I find funny, if we can fictionalize units operational lives to the point of reinforcing myth and this is the camels back broken in two, its funny. |