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Black Prince Poll

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19 Jul 2021, 12:59 PM
#61
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 414 | Subs: 2



I always excused Relic for historical inaccuracies in the past because I always assumed that they didn't have the money for enough research. But now they have more money and also asked the community to help them.

To me it always seemd like they tried to be Historical accurate but simply ended up failing often. For instance in the Singeplayer in CoH2 you are often limited to Anti Tank rifles and Short barrel Panzer 4 as the germans, which is (more) historical accurate (than Panzerschreck and Panther in 1942). They even went as far as giving Grens a AT-Riflegrenade (with a special icon that was never used again) instead of Panzerfaust in the Singleplayer missions




The things you mentioned are mostly caused by it being a game. I doubt Commanders in WW2 had birdseye view and radio connection to units too (although one could of course argue in favor of more realitisc goliaths (especially regarding the self spotting part), which was done by several people already, I think there is even a mod for that)





A spot that does not need to be filled. Why would Brits need a Strong AT tank with Strong armor if they already have Archer and can have 17 pdr M10 and will face no Tiger IIs or Jagdtigers?

And why not simply give Brits 6 pdr Churchill with Tungsten rounds? Could fill the same role as Bp if really needed


+1. Even though Relic have had some serious blunders in the historical accuracy department in the past, they can and should learn and grow from their mistakes. We shouldn't hold them to negative standards the same way we do with positive ones.
Pip
19 Jul 2021, 14:14 PM
#62
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1555

Why do people consider gameplay consideration/quirks that exist for the sake of balance (V1 rocket strikes (which were dumb), Vampire HTs, Pilotless Goliaths, people being able to survive being hosed with an MG42, on-field healing that repairs any and all wounds perfectly, the exceedingly short range of all weapons in the game) as somehow comparable to implementing fantasy vehicles?

You're undermining your own arguments with this rather silly comparison. Units function somewhat unrealistically because it is necessary for the game to work, whereas you can get the same end result of a strong all-rounder tank without having to use fantasy designs (For the timeframe) like the BP, Panther 2, or IS3.

These are not even slightly similar points, and trying to pretend that they are is really grasping at straws.
19 Jul 2021, 14:19 PM
#63
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 835 | Subs: 1

The Black Prince was only a prototype - so what? The Brits have not nearly as much to offer as other factions in terms of different vehicles. Using the Black Prince is an elegant way to give them another attractive tool.
The ST and JT also were only build in very low numbers and both units were considered failed constructions. But both units were used in CoH2 and nobody cared. Relic should use every option to make the factions as interesting as possible, that's my opinion.
19 Jul 2021, 14:23 PM
#64
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jul 2021, 14:19 PMSmartie
The Black Prince was only a prototype - so what? The Brits have not nearly as much to offer as other factions in terms of different vehicles. Using the Black Prince is an elegant way to give them another attractive tool.
The ST and JT also were only build in very low numbers and both units were considered failed constructions. But both units were used in CoH2 and nobody cared. Relic should use every option to make the factions as interesting as possible, that's my opinion.


A unit that dozens/ hundreds were built of and that was used in the war being in the game =/= a unit that 6 were built of and wasn't used being in the game

Also variety is imo not a vaild argument, especially as long as we don't have M10 with 17 pounder and Churchill Crocodile in game (which both were used in WW2 and Italy). It would be like keeping the Panther and Tiger I out of the german faction but adding Maus tank because "we need variety"
Pip
19 Jul 2021, 14:25 PM
#65
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1555

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jul 2021, 14:19 PMSmartie
The Black Prince was only a prototype - so what? The Brits have not nearly as much to offer as other factions in terms of different vehicles. Using the Black Prince is an elegant way to give them another attractive tool.
The ST and JT also were only build in very low numbers and both units were considered failed constructions. But both units were used in CoH2 and nobody cared. Relic should use every option to make the factions as interesting as possible, that's my opinion.


The Brits have plenty of potential vehicles they could be using, which were actually used by them during the war. You simply haven't done any research.

The Comet, Challenger (Though this is more a Tank Destroyer), Crusader variants, Cromwell (Which was in CoH2, but not CoH3 seemingly), Grant, among plenty of others. The Black Prince being implemented is in no way "Elegant".

The ST and JT were indeed only built and used in relatively low numbers (Though 18 superheavy assault guns is not an insignificant number, and 70-80 superheavy tank destroyers is similarly not at all insignificant.) The thing you seem to gloss over there is that both the ST and JT were in fact built and used in WWII, whereas the BP was not, in fact, used at all.
19 Jul 2021, 14:55 PM
#66
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jul 2021, 12:59 PMKasarov


+1. Even though Relic have had some serious blunders in the historical accuracy department in the past, they can and should learn and grow from their mistakes. We shouldn't hold them to negative standards the same way we do with positive ones.
company of heroes was never a historically accurate game, therefore your argument is invalid and this thread is a waste of space, you’re trying to make company of heroes in to something it’s not. You want historical accuracy? Go play steel division or gates of hell
19 Jul 2021, 15:08 PM
#67
avatar of Grittle

Posts: 177

company of heroes was never a historically accurate game, therefore your argument is invalid and this thread is a waste of space, you’re trying to make company of heroes in to something it’s not. You want historical accuracy? Go play steel division or gates of hell


Was it completely historically accurate? no.

But atleast almost every unit showcased was used in WW2 at some point. The black prince was NOT used in WW2 in any capacity. It did not fight on any front. And it did not appear in 1943 Italy.
19 Jul 2021, 15:23 PM
#68
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jul 2021, 15:08 PMGrittle


Was it completely historically accurate? no.

But atleast almost every unit showcased was used in WW2 at some point. The black prince was NOT used in WW2 in any capacity. It did not fight on any front. And it did not appear in 1943 Italy.
v1s were not used in a tactical capacity, infrared assault rifles weren’t used, and don’t get me started on units like the strum tiger, you’re fighting a losing argument
19 Jul 2021, 15:26 PM
#69
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 480

What bothers me the most about the Black Prince was not that they chose to add it but that it isn't even correctly made.

They just took a normal churchill hull, tossed on a different turret and called it a day. This level of half assery from Relic makes me not want to to buy any of their games in the future after what they pulled with Dawn of War 3.

If they are going to add something wether it be Black Prince or not at least make it correctly. That is like Relic taking a regular sherman, renaming it to Sherman Firefly without any changes and calling it a day. It is pure laziness and I expect better from Relic especially since I know the modding community could make amazing realistic models if they weren't locked out of the game (Look at some of the COH 1 mods).

Now for as far as the Black Prince being in the game, I would be ok with it if it was something that you could research similar to how you would Research Tech in Hearts of Iron/Stellaris or other 4x games. This would allow factions to have different experimental tanks promoting unit diversity in a way that would make sense as it would be understood that it was something rare and unique and would add some flavor to the campaign.

However I don't think the Black Prince should be something that is baseline for the faction especially in multiplayer.
19 Jul 2021, 15:37 PM
#70
avatar of Grittle

Posts: 177

v1s were not used in a tactical capacity, infrared assault rifles weren’t used, and don’t get me started on units like the strum tiger, you’re fighting a losing argument


V1 existed and were used. not in a tactical capacity, but were used.

Infrared STGs were used in the last few months in the war, and the concept of infrared small arms were used earlier than that.

20 Sturmtigers were made, assigned to divisions, and used. that's 20 more than the amount of Black princes used in WW2.



19 Jul 2021, 15:40 PM
#71
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1916 | Subs: 2

v1s were not used in a tactical capacity, infrared assault rifles weren’t used, and don’t get me started on units like the strum tiger, you’re fighting a losing argument


V1 was used tactically, the Germans tried several times to blow up the bridge over the Oder with V1 on March 15, 1945. The first time was successful - 4 bridge spans were blown up, 20 sappers were killed and more than 30 were wounded. The sappers managed to eliminate the consequences of a missile strike and restore the destroyed part of the bridge within two nights, and the command strengthened its anti-aircraft cover. On March 19, another attack on the bridge. This time, dense anti-aircraft gun fire forced the pilot of the carrier aircraft to deviate somewhat from the course. Therefore, the rocket exploded not on the bridge, but just downstream, causing only minor damage, also rubbing about a dozen soldiers.
19 Jul 2021, 15:48 PM
#72
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760



V1 was used tactically, the Germans tried several times to blow up the bridge over the Oder with V1 on March 15, 1945. The first time was successful - 4 bridge spans were blown up, 20 sappers were killed and more than 30 were wounded. The sappers managed to eliminate the consequences of a missile strike and restore the destroyed part of the bridge within two nights, and the command strengthened its anti-aircraft cover. On March 19, another attack on the bridge. This time, dense anti-aircraft gun fire forced the pilot of the carrier aircraft to deviate somewhat from the course. Therefore, the rocket exploded not on the bridge, but just downstream, causing only minor damage, also rubbing about a dozen soldiers.
they weren’t used actively in battle, by that time the Americans already had the bridge
19 Jul 2021, 15:50 PM
#73
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jul 2021, 15:37 PMGrittle


V1 existed and were used. not in a tactical capacity, but were used.

Infrared STGs were used in the last few months in the war, and the concept of infrared small arms were used earlier than that.

20 Sturmtigers were made, assigned to divisions, and used. that's 20 more than the amount of Black princes used in WW2.



wow a whole 20 sturm tigers amazing, when ever wonder waffen gets added no one cares but every one is losing their minds of a fucking tank
19 Jul 2021, 15:54 PM
#74
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1916 | Subs: 2

they weren’t used actively in battle, by that time the Americans already had the bridge


Only you have a mistake, Soviet Soldiers were crossing the Oder. Vistula–Oder offensive.
19 Jul 2021, 15:58 PM
#75
avatar of Grittle

Posts: 177

wow a whole 20 sturm tigers amazing, when ever wonder waffen gets added no one cares but every one is losing their minds of a fucking tank


If the Maus, Panther 2, or Kugelblitz get added I would be just as mad as the Black Prince getting added.

The Sturmtiger, Ostwind, Pershing, and the Comet were all tanks where less than 40 saw service in WW2, all were added to COH at one point. The Black Prince had 6 prototypes and never saw service in WW2 this should not be added to COH.

Also, vehicles like the Sturmtiger shouldn't even be built in huge quantities. It serves a niche specialized role. to compare, the KV2 shares a similar role to the Sturmtiger and only about 200 were made. a very small amount compared to every other soviet tank made.

19 Jul 2021, 16:02 PM
#76
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jul 2021, 15:58 PMGrittle


If the Maus, Panther 2, or Kugelblitz get added I would be just as mad as the Black Prince getting added.




Unlike the Maus and Panther 2, the BP was built and was functional before the end of the war. It just wasn't moved to the front line. (Or even mainland europe)


It's not a fictional or theory design. It's a real tank. One of them is still operational to this day, having been finished during WWII.
19 Jul 2021, 16:05 PM
#77
avatar of Grittle

Posts: 177



Unlike the Maus and Panther 2, the BP was built and was functional before the end of the war. It just wansn't moved to the front line. (Or even mainland europe)


It's not a fictional or theory design. It's a real tank. One of them is still operational to this day, having been finished during WWII.


Yes, a real tank that never saw combat and only had 6 made, like the Kugelblitz. And I don't see either being in COH in any capacity.
19 Jul 2021, 16:06 PM
#78
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

wow a whole 20 sturm tigers amazing, when ever wonder waffen gets added no one cares but every one is losing their minds of a fucking tank


Don't act like we are just Wehraboos getting mad about Allies getting "wonder waffen" too ...

Allies literally got Pershing, Comet, Tulip rockets and M18 rifles too. It is just that those were used ... unlike BP




Unlike the Maus and Panther 2, the BP was built and was functional before the end of the war.


Aren't there pictures of the Maus tank being tested and driving around?
19 Jul 2021, 16:09 PM
#79
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760



Only you have a mistake, Soviet Soldiers were crossing the Oder. Vistula–Oder offensive.
same point by the time the Germans decided to use the rockets a bridge head was already secured
19 Jul 2021, 16:12 PM
#80
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760



Don't act like we are just Wehraboos getting mad about Allies getting "wonder waffen" too ...

Allies literally got Pershing, Comet, Tulip rockets and M18 rifles too. It is just that those were used ... unlike BP




Aren't there pictures of the Maus tank being tested and driving around?
then stop crying about, of all the things to complain about it’s one unit, you’re acting like the game will be unrecognizable and you won’t be able to tell if it’s ww2 or not. It’s even worse you’re trying to make the game into something it’s not, coh was never about historical accuracy
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