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Black Prince Poll

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Should the Black Prince be replaced with another unit that fits the setting?
Option Distribution Votes
57%
43%
Total votes: 111
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
18 Jul 2021, 08:24 AM
#1
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 963

Better asking this early.

The other thread didn't include a poll.

The game is going to feature the Black Prince. A tank that wasn't used in the 2nd world war.

Considering this game is going to focus on 1943 Italy and the devs announced that this was going to be a very special setting that they want to stay true to, I don't see how a Black Prince would fit.

What would fit the setting are Churchills with 75mm or 6 Pounder guns... which would still be an improvement over the 2 Pounder Churchill.

If we keep the Black Prince then this would open up possibilities to copy paste The Königstiger, Jagdpanther etc. into this game (tanks that were actually used in the war) and get the boring old super heavy gameplay.

Thus I really feel the BP should be replaced with an actual unit that participated in the war.
18 Jul 2021, 10:20 AM
#2
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1614

Meh they already made it so whatever

But it's such a stupid decision, especially because the game won't feature an italian faction but it's giving fantasy cold war tanks to UK
18 Jul 2021, 10:28 AM
#3
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1894 | Subs: 2

I think the Black Prince does not belong in the game, he is not part of the Second World War. Britain has enough units for the faction, they don't need a paper tank. I could still understand if it was the Japanese faction, which is very sad with tanks, guns, etc. That Japan most likely consisted purely of paper or tanks that did not have time to take part in the war.
18 Jul 2021, 10:32 AM
#4
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 512

Meh they already made it so whatever


I don't think taking the already existing Churchill model and slapping a bigger gun on top of it was a lot of work, especially considering those are pre-alpha models
18 Jul 2021, 11:12 AM
#5
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 3081 | Subs: 2



I don't taking the already existing Churchill model and slapping a bigger gun on top of it was a lot of work, especially considering those are pre-alpha models


This.

The Black Prince model is basically a normal Churchill hull with a new turret and a 17 pounder slapped on top of it while in reality it had a wider hull to accommodate a larger turret that can actually fit the gun:

Regular 2 pounder Churchills:





Black Prince which as you can notice, just has the different turret and gun on the same hull as I already mentioned, even the colors don't match:





People however would probably be fine with it if we had other fantasy units like the King Tiger and Jagdpanther back however.

I mean the Archer was also only used in 1945 so it's not really an Italian Front unit either.

Sherman Jumbo for the US would be nice again if we're going for the fantasy setting and honestly I mean why not, CoH isn't really known for keeping it 1:1 historically accurate especially with some units such as the Ostwind, Panzerwerfer, Pershing and Comet to name a few more units that were featured in the previous 2 games that saw very limited service during the war as well.
18 Jul 2021, 11:21 AM
#6
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1180

They also add black soldiers to airborne so yeah very realstic game
18 Jul 2021, 11:52 AM
#7
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1200

They also add black soldiers to airborne so yeah very realstic game
Black soldiers fought in the war. Black princes didn't. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

On topic: There are two options we have.

1) Make this game true to the setting: Replace the BP.

2) We make this loosely themed about WW2. Then there is not a single reason that the KT, Jagdpanther etc. can't be in the game.

I would prefer the former option.
18 Jul 2021, 12:03 PM
#8
avatar of PatFenis

Posts: 108

They also add black soldiers to airborne so yeah very realstic game


What is this obsession of people, who get upset about a singular unit with a black person as portrait? Absolut mental derangement.

If you go by "There were no black people in Airborne" then how do you explain the airborne companys having tanks and shit? As far as I know, they were usually in tank and infantry divisions or shit like that.
This whole argument based on realism is so blown out of proportion lol - inb4 "WoKe GaMe InDuStRy DeStRoyS gAyMs!!11!"

Back to the topic, this voting is scuffed. I dont care if there is a black prince and I could do with or without it.
18 Jul 2021, 12:05 PM
#9
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1614



This.

The Black Prince model is basically a normal Churchill hull with a new turret and a 17 pounder slapped on top of it while in reality it had a wider hull to accommodate a larger turret that can actually fit the gun:

Regular 2 pounder Churchills:





Black Prince which as you can notice, just has the different turret and gun on the same hull as I already mentioned, even the colors don't match:





People however would probably be fine with it if we had other fantasy units like the King Tiger and Jagdpanther back however.

I mean the Archer was also only used in 1945 so it's not really an Italian Front unit either.

Sherman Jumbo for the US would be nice again if we're going for the fantasy setting and honestly I mean why not, CoH isn't really known for keeping it 1:1 historically accurate especially with some units such as the Ostwind, Panzerwerfer, Pershing and Comet to name a few more units that were featured in the previous 2 games that saw very limited service during the war as well.

The Archer and the King Tiger are fine because they existed in the first place at least, during the war
18 Jul 2021, 12:19 PM
#10
avatar of LordRommel
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 265 | Subs: 1

Archer TDs in Italy:
314th Battery, 105th Anti-Tank Regiment. Royal Artillery.
Used from late 1944 until the end of the war in Italy.
Often used in indirect fire support and against bunkers and field fortifications.
18 Jul 2021, 12:26 PM
#11
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 512


The Archer and the King Tiger are fine because they existed in the first place at least, during the war


Please no King in this game either. It has no buisness being in Italy and I also want something new and not the same old heavy tank spam stuff again

Regarding the Archer: It was used in 1945 in Italy and there are some pictures that claim that it was used in 1944 already (if this is no the case then the M10 17 pdr Archer could be added too to the game and could be used in the Singeplayer in 1944 and as a doctrinal unit in Muliplayer)

Regarding the proposal of adding Sherman Jumbo: Why no add Shermans with wielded on armor instead? They were (unlike Jumo afaik) used in Italy and could serve a similar purpose



- Shermans disembarking from LST at Anzio

Also there were Sherman Bulldozers in Italy too (they could get extra armor in Coh3 too).



18 Jul 2021, 12:53 PM
#12
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 399 | Subs: 2

Agree wholeheartedly that the Black Prince does not belong in CoH3.

It sets a bad precedent and leads down a dangerous rabbit hole. What's next? Maus? Panther II? There are plenty of other interesting Churchill upgrades that are far more thematic and more historically plausible/authentic.

Many people have already suggested a Churchill VI or VII with the British 75mm gun. However, to keep the novelty, the NA75 conversion of the Churchill (Churchill IV with Sherman gun and better turret armor specifically made for Italy) would be an appropriately thematic and interesting alternative to consider.
18 Jul 2021, 12:57 PM
#13
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 3081 | Subs: 2

Archer TDs in Italy:
314th Battery, 105th Anti-Tank Regiment. Royal Artillery.
Used from late 1944 until the end of the war in Italy.
Often used in indirect fire support and against bunkers and field fortifications.


But we're fighting in 1943 Italy, no?

And yeah I guess I was wrong about the Archer being only used in 1945 but I've read very little about it as it's a weird vehicle.

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jul 2021, 12:53 PMKasarov
A NA75 conversion of the Churchill (Churchill IV with Sherman gun and better turret armor specifically made for Italy) would be an appropriately thematic and interesting replacement.


It's already in the game, or at least the files.

There is an upgrade called the NA 75mm for the Churchill in the British Armor company in the campaign that is unavailable in the pre-alpha.
18 Jul 2021, 13:01 PM
#14
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 399 | Subs: 2

It's already in the game, or at least the files.

There is an upgrade called the NA 75mm for the Churchill in the British Armor company in the campaign that is unavailable in the pre-alpha.


Wew lads

If they already have plans for the NA75, as others have mentioned before, a Churchill VI or VII would be fine as a replacement to Black Prince too. There are plenty of historically plausible and thematic units available, so no need to force a post-war tank into the game.
18 Jul 2021, 13:08 PM
#15
avatar of LordRommel
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 265 | Subs: 1



But we're fighting in 1943 Italy, no?

I'm not sure that the game will be focused on 1943 only. I think with the Tobruk scenario and the variety of units we will see the 1942~1945 southern theater of war. I think one campaign setting will be focused on Cassino, one around Anzio, one Husky scenario and one Gustav line scenario.


And yeah I guess I was wrong about the Archer being only used in 1945 but I've read very little about it as it's a weird vehicle.
[...]

As far as i know the Archer was used in very limited numbers. There are pictures of the 20th Anti-tank regiment fighting in Germany. The 2nd Canadian Division and the 15th Scottish Division had at least a single battery of Archer TDs. So the Italian regiment is one of the largest Archer units with combat experience.
18 Jul 2021, 13:17 PM
#16
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 679

I can't think of any realistic reason they'd go to the expense of setting up a new unit, even if most of it is pre-existing assets, and then junking it. Even partisans are still around in COH2 and they took years to not be bad memes. Iirc, the BP is the cap to a particular commander tree so it seems even less likely they'll remove a keystone unit from a commander.
18 Jul 2021, 13:58 PM
#17
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 129

So I don't like the Black Prince in the game but I do understand why it's possibly being considered. It would be a unit that could go toe to toe with the German Panther and Tiger. It's a full on heavy tank for the allies which is possibly there so it feels like both sides have access to a potent heavy tank if they really want it (compared to like coh2 where the Panther was stock and the allies didn't have an equivalent). The Black Prince being a doctrinal equivalent to the Panther and Tiger which also both seem doctrinal is what makes the most sense to me as to the reason for it's inclusion.

Based on the files the US forces will have a Jumbo as their "heavy" tank. So I think the need for a Black Prince isn't worth putting it in the game. There are a lot of churchill variants open with some being pretty potent heavy tanks.
You have:

The Churchill Mk II - Currently in the game with the 2 pounder but mislabeled as a Mk III

The Churchill Mk III - Equipped with a 6 pounder which is more powerful but still outclassed by Panzer IVs firepower wise. Also notable lack of HE rounds.

Churchill NA75 - A Mk III with a Sherman 75mm gun placed on it. Used mainly in North Africa and Italy with excellent performance due to strong HE rounds. This is also already in the game files.

Churchill MK VII - A big redesign that made this essentially the ultimate churchill. The "Heavy Churchill" had more armor and a new QF75 gun making it all around extremely capable.

Imo the VII should replace the Black Prince as although it's firepower isn't enough to reliably pen the front of a tiger or panther they will struggle also. The Tiger at least historically speaking couldn't penetrate the front without specialized AT rounds and the Panther was very close to the 152mm frontal from the heavy churchill. I think it would fix the issue of not being an actual war time vehicle while still filling the need for a strong doctrinal heavy tank similar to the jumbo for the allies.
18 Jul 2021, 14:18 PM
#19
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1200

So I don't like the Black Prince in the game but I do understand why it's possibly being considered. It would be a unit that could go toe to toe with the German Panther and Tiger. It's a full on heavy tank for the allies which is possibly there so it feels like both sides have access to a potent heavy tank if they really want it (compared to like coh2 where the Panther was stock and the allies didn't have an equivalent). The Black Prince being a doctrinal equivalent to the Panther and Tiger which also both seem doctrinal is what makes the most sense to me as to the reason for it's inclusion.
And that is exactly the reason why it shouldn't be in the game. Takes the whole point out of having a Tiger in the first place.

Before the forum troll appears: I don't want an invincible Tiger. I just don't want some fantasy unit simply mirroring the Tiger.
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