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Grittle's Italian-German Faction Idea (From Official Forums)

What is your opinion? (I appreciate feedback of all kinds)
Option Distribution Votes
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Total votes: 56
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
4 Apr 2016, 00:49 AM
#1
avatar of Grittle

Posts: 177

If you want to see the Idea in the Official Forums, is right here: https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/240999/grittles-italian-front-axis-army-heeresgruppenkommando-idea-version-2#latest

CHANGES
April 2016
May 2016
July 2016
July 2021
-Tweaked numbers to be inline with current balance.

DESCRIPTION
The fierceness, ruggedness, and mobility of the elite Heeresgruppenkommando 2, or Army Group C of the Italian front kept the superior allied army at bay in Italy from 1943-1945. Take use of their vast array of light vehicles and Italian and German Supplies to flank and attack allied positions, But beware: the HGK have limited infantry and medium/heavy tank resources. Mobility is the key to victory.

OVERVIEW
As the Description says, the HGK is extremely mobile and light vehicle attack force. While the OKW has light vehicles. They also had access to lots of infantry and heavy weaponry. The HGK is different: aside from weapon crews, the HGK's infantry department would be solely on 1 T0 engineers, 1 "T3" Elite Infantry, and the eventual Doctrines. T1 are for the Weapon Crews. T2 and T3 will be chock full of fast and furious light tanks. And their T4 will consist of hard-hitting medium vehicles.

All units costs are reflected on how well they perform in theory(I.E a 240 manpower Infantry would be as effective as Grenadiers or Conscripts, as they also are 240 manpower infantry.)

BASE LAYOUT
The HGK's method of teching is rather odd. instead of building an actual building or converting a supply truck into another. the HGK instead has its Main HQ call in "Command Vehicles" which behave similarly to the Ostheer's Command Panzer. but not only does it allow buffs to allied units. But also can order units into battle like a building. The only trade off is less powerful weapons for themselves. They do have more health and armor than their non-command brethren. but not by much.

When not in use. you can have the Command tanks to "hunker down" to become a temporary building. acting as a resource cache for yourself, lowering the population cap, and dramatically increasing durability. and it still has access to its main cannon, passive bonuses in the sector its hunkered down in, and building units. It cannot re-mobilize if the pop cap can't allow it.

Base Sector Defense: Breda 37 Hmg Bunker.

All HGK Weapon teams are, without upgrades/vet, fitted to be 5 man with Carcano M1891 rifles.

They Start with 400 Manpower, 0 Munitions, and 25 Fuel.

T0: Sede Principale (They start with 1 Guastatori squad and a Sd.Kfz 7 Breda 61 Supply Halftrack)
(Provides Infantry and other methods of gaining and improving territory. Also provides upgrades for your army)

HQ Upgrade: Advance Infantry Capabilities [Requires T1 or T2, 200 Manpower, 30 Fuel] [Breda 30 LMG: 50 Munitions per LMG]
All Bersaglieri and combat motorcycles can now fire panzerfausts and allows the requisition of Breda 30 LMGs from weapon racks.

HQ Upgrade: Fortified Command Vehicles [Requires T4, 300 Manpower, 30 Fuel]
All non-doctrinal units now have a 25% production boost. All Vehicles can now capture points at half the speed of infantry. And All command vehicles now have 25% more Armor and Health.


Guastatori [240 Manpower, 6 Population]
A 5 Man Italian engineer squad. All armed with repair tools, advance field defenses (Tank Traps, Barbed Wire, Land Mines, Trenches, Sandbags, ect.), explosives, and Carcano M1891 rifles. Has an optional upgrades for a PzB 35 Anti-Tank Rifle or Mine detecting Equipment. can also be fitted with LMGs from racks as an HQ upgrade, Requiring T1 or T2 to be unlocked.

Field Support Package [Cost: 30 Munitions]
Provides Minesweepers and a more effective repair ability.


Vehicle Deterrent Package [Requires T1 or T2, Cost: 70 Munitions]
Provides 2 PzB 35 AT Rifles to combat vehicles.


Moto Guzzi Alce Combat Motorcycle [180 Manpower, 4 Population]
The Backbone of the HGK early game army. Can capture sectors, mobile, and armed with a Breda 30 LMG. Can be healed by both Engineers and Medics. can also be retrofitted with Panzerfausts as an HQ upgrade, Requiring T1 or T2 to be unlocked.

Advance Recon Package [Requires T3 or T4, Cost: 30 Munitions]
Provides an additional 20 LOS when stationary.


Brixia Model 35 45mm light Mortar [250 Manpower, 7 Population]
The HGK's answer to a need for early game indirect support. The Brixia 35 Mortar is a 45mm rapid firing mortar that forces the enemy on the move. can also retreat without the use of vet.

Bersaglieri [315 Manpower, 8 Population]
Truly the Cream of the Crop, Bersaglieri Marksmen are a 4 Man Squad armed with Carcano M1891 Rifles and an array of side arms. Can be upgraded with Berreta 38 SMGs. can also be retrofitted with Panzerfausts as an HQ upgrade, Requiring T1 or T2 to be unlocked.
(Requires T1 or T2 to be unlocked in order to build this Unit)

Urban Assault Package [Cost: 75 Munitions]
Provides Berreta 38 SMGs to replace the rifles provides access to the Tactical Movement ability (Same as the Paratrooper's Ability with Thompsons)
.

Bundled Grenade [Cost: 45 Munitions, Offense Vet 1]
Throws a very powerful grenade.


Smoke Grenades Assault [Cost: 35 Munitions, Defense Vet 1]
Throws multiple smoke grenades for maximum coverage.

Sd.Kfz. 7 Breda 61 Supply Halftrack [230 Manpower, 5 Fuel]
The HGK's version of a Fuel Cache, Builder, ect. . The Halftrack can be turned into a fuel outpost, munitions outpost, repair station, or ambulance station. they can't stack with the Wehrmacht fuel/munition's caches or vice versa. Can also start transporting Infantry once T1 or T2 is reached. Only 1 resource Outpost and 1 Support Outpost is allowed per normal sectors, and only 1 Support Outposts are allowed on victory points, the Base Sector, and fuel/Munition points.

Fuel Outpost: Acts Exactly like a fuel Cache, has a 75 Munitions Upgrade for Camo
[Cost to build: 10 Munitions]

Munitions Outpost: Acts Exactly like a Munitions Cache, has a 45 Fuel Upgrade for Camo
[Cost to build: 10 Fuel]

Repair Outpost: Houses 4 Engineers for Repairing vehicles, Has a 50 Munitions upgrade for 50 extra vision range
[Cost to build: 20 Munitions]


Ambulance Outpost: Houses 4 Medics for Healing, can reinforce, has a 150 Manpower upgrade for Retreat Point and a Breda 30 LMG Weapon Rack, if unlocked.
[Cost to build: 50 Manpower]


(All Outposts provides warmth in winter maps)

T1: Command L6/40 light Tank [Cost to Build: 200 Manpower, 30 Fuel, 6 Population]
This Command tank gives passive speed bonuses to allied infantry and weapon crews in the sector. also has the ability to call in smoke bomb artillery.
(Allows access to the heavy weapon crews needed to hold territory you acquire, lacks mobility)

Nebelwerfer 41 [400 Manpower, 9 Population]
Can Fire 6 150mm rockets, need I say more? Can fire Incendiary (Offense Vet 2) or Smoke (Defense Vet 2) Depending on which Veterancy Type it became.

Gebirgsflak 38 [290 Manpower, 8 Population]
The HGK's method of Suppression, this Mobile Flak cannon can suppress blobs of infantry while being an annoyance to aircraft.

Elevated Position [Requires Vet 1, Toggle]
The Flak Cannon is moved to an elevated position. providing more range and bonus accuracy vs planes, but gets hit more often as a result.


Cannone da 47/32 M35 Field Gun [280 Manpower, 8 Population]
The HGK's answer to enemy light armor, light, fast, and hard to spot, this is a HGK infantry staple. Also has the ability to fire Effetto Pronto HEAT rounds to fend off heavier armor.

Effetto Pronto HEAT Rounds [Cost: 15 Munitions for 15 Seconds]
Double the Penetration and +15% firing rate (Offense Vet 1) and/or +15% Range (Defense Vet 1) for 15 seconds.


T2: Command Panzer III [Cost to Build: 260 Manpower, 40 Fuel, 8 Population]
This Command tank gives passive vision bonuses to allied units in the sector. also has the ability to call in a Recon Strafe Macchi C.202 plane.
(Brings the bulk of your mobile light vehicle forces into the fight, something for nearly every situation early to mid-game, but the vehicles themselves lack durability and long-term front line sustainability.)

138 Mardar III Ausf. M Tank Destroyer [315 Manpower, 60 Fuel, 7 Population]
A Panzer 38(t) Outfitted with a 75 mm Anti-Tank Gun

Carro Armato L3/35 Tankette [250 Manpower, 20 Fuel, 5 Population]
A cheap, fast, and surprisingly durable Tankette, the L3/35 is able to suppress infantry with its twin 8mm MGs for double the fun!

Fiat Carro Armato L6/40 Light Tank [285 Manpower, 50 Fuel, 8 Population]
Another HGK staple, Light, Mobile, and with a deadly 20mm fast firing cannon. This tank danced like a fly and stung like a mosquito…. a REALLY big Mosquito. Can also be upgraded into a L6 Lf Flame Tank for even more anti-infantry power.

Flamethrower Package [Cost: 90 Munitions]
Replaces the 20mm cannon with a flamethrower.


T3: Command Panzer 4 [T1 or T2 Cost to Build: 280 Manpower, 70 Fuel, 9 Population]
This Command tank gives passive reload speed bonuses to allied units in the sector. also has the ability to call in heavy mortar strikes and fake flares.
(Provides your mid-game workhorse tank: The Panzer 3, and the supporting units to work in tandem with it against infantry and light vehicles. lacks reliable AT.)

Panzer III Ausf. M [300 Manpower, 80 Fuel, 10 Population]
The Main Battle Tank of the HGK, these Panzer IIIs were armed with a high-velocity yet mediocre AT wise 50mm cannon and reasonably thick armor.

75mm Infantry Support Up-Gun Package [Cost: 60 Munitions]
Transforms the Panzer 3 Ausf. M into a Ausf. N Variant, with a short 75mm barrel. It trades the slightly above mediocre armor penetrating power of the 50mm cannon for a High-Explosive, 75mm Cannon used by the Stug 3 Es for better Anti-Infantry and bunker busting powers. also slightly increase acceleration and speed (Offense Vet 1) and/or gives it a minor boost in health. (Defense Vet 1)

Sd.Kfz 138/1 Grille Self Propelled Artillery [330 Manpower, 80 Fuel, 12 Population]
A Panzer 38(t) outfitted with a 150 mm Infantry Gun.

Wirblewind [250 Manpower, 105 Fuel, 10 Population]
A Panzer IV with 4 2cm flak 38 cannons, both an Infantry and Aircraft shredder.

T4: Command P26/40 Heavy Tank [Any 2 Combination of T1, T2, and T3 Cost to Build: 330 Manpower, 85 Fuel, 10 Population]
This Command tank gives passive light suppression bonuses for the hull MGs to allied vehicles in the sector. also has the ability to call in a Macchi C.205 20mm Strafing run.
(Grants access to your "late" game specialist units, extremely effective, but rather expensive.)

Panzer IV Ausf. H [380 Manpower, 130 Fuel, 12 Population]
One of the most dangerous Panzer IV Variants ever created. Can be upgraded with both S-mine launchers and Zimmerit mine-reducing damage paint. Comes with Armor Skirts, Only downside compared to other Panzer IV Variants is slower speed.

MG 42 Pintle [Cost: 60 Munitions]
You know what this does, I'm not going into detail about it.

Advance Defense Package [Cost: 30 Munitions] [S-mines: Costs 20 Munitions per shot] [Smoke Projector: 30 Munitions]
Provides Zimmerit paint, which reduces the damage done by mines by 30%, and allows the ability to fire S-Mines against infantry [Offense Vet 1] and/or unleash protective smoke [Defense Vet 1]


Bergepanzer IV [300 Manpower, 100 Fuel, 10 Population]
A Panzer IV that can quickly repair vehicles, salvage wrecks, can repair light and medium vehicle wrecks to operational use, or become a temporary repair station. Should be protected as it has no means to defend itself with. Gains Veterancy from repairing and other units fighting near the Bergepanzer.

Resurrect [Reduces Manpower income by 15% per ongoing resurrection]
Allows the reconstruction of vehicle wrecks to operational use. time takes to repair depends on health of the wreck.

Hunker Down [Takes 6 Seconds to transition in and out of hunkered down]
Turns into a repair station, housing 3 engineers to repair any nearby allied vehicles.

Tow [Requires Vet 2]
Allows the towing of wrecks and immobile allied vehicles, will lower the speed of the bergepanzer.


Semovente 75/34 [320 Manpower, 130 Fuel, 12 Population]
The Main Tank Destroyer of the HGK, this assault gun has an extremely powerful but slow firing 75 mm high-velocity cannon.

VETERANCY
The HGK's Veterancy works similar to the COH1 PE's form. able to choose more offensive or defensive bonuses AND vet experience is shared between all nearby units. but you can only choose the Offense or Defense vets after getting a generic vet 1. Here are some examples of what the Veterancy Options are.

INFANTRY


WEAPON CREWS


VEHICLES (Bergepanzer 4 and Command Tanks can Only choose the defense vets)



DOCTRINES/COMMANDERS

As this faction is just a draft. I would be only doing the default 3 commanders this faction comes with and 8 "DLC" ones.

Italian Remnant Operations: (Default)



Tank Destroyer Operations: (Default)



Supply Defense Operations: (Default)



Advanced Crew Operations: (Rare)



German Support Operations: (Rare)



Italian Armor Operations: (Rare)



Italian Infiltration Operations: (Rare)



Mountain Warfare Operations: (Rare)



Bombardment Operations: (Rare)



Vehicle Recovery Operations: (Rare)



Mobile Reconnaissance Operations: (Rare)


Now that you finished reading the Idea, you can now answer that Poll you OH so waited for. And trust me, I can take nearly any kind of feedback. good or bad. and improve the idea based on it. I really hope you like the Idea and comment ways you can improve or like about it, and if you don't... I don't really care IF you comment why it would be a bad idea and ways you could improve it.
4 Apr 2016, 02:41 AM
#2
avatar of Cyanara

Posts: 769 | Subs: 1

Gyah! The yellow! It burnssss!
4 Apr 2016, 02:53 AM
#3
avatar of wouren
Senior Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 1280 | Subs: 3

I like the idea. Do you think there should also be some kind of osttruppen-grade infantry that have no AT snare and a merge feature. Otherwise it's just a cluster cluck of light vehicles over a support spam.
4 Apr 2016, 04:04 AM
#4
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

Smoke Grenades Assault [Cost: 35 Munitions, Defense Vet 1]
Throws multiple smoke grenades for maximum coverage.

FUCKING SOLD

#420BLAZEIT
4 Apr 2016, 04:15 AM
#5
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

This is the best faction idea ever, seriously 10/10 dude. This could work.

Only thing is I think that the basic starter unit should be 5 man.
4 Apr 2016, 05:32 AM
#6
avatar of robertmikael
Donator 11

Posts: 311

This is the best faction idea ever, seriously 10/10 dude. This could work.

Only thing is I think that the basic starter unit should be 5 man.

I think an Italian army should have a 6 man starter unit, because they had the manpower but were not necessary as tough as the Germans. (a massive unterstatement)

But where are the heavy tanks or the PAK 88?
The Africa Corps had Tigers in Africa,
and there were Panthers in Italy, and even an Elephant?

And I think also that the Italian-German faction should be an army that is really good in defending territory, because the fighting in Italy during the last years of the war was primarily that. See for example the battle of Monte Cassino.
4 Apr 2016, 06:17 AM
#7
avatar of GrenadierIT19

Posts: 141

Of Course this would work!
4 Apr 2016, 06:39 AM
#8
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740

Updated the Colors... How on earth do people choose yellow as a text color on white background? :D
4 Apr 2016, 07:13 AM
#9
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1

Italia, oh please, what next, afrikan armyes?
4 Apr 2016, 07:19 AM
#10
avatar of Antemurale
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 941

Thank you, Highfive, for saving my eyes.

This could certainly work. Wonderful faction layout, although I foresee Guards and Zook spam. I had the "mobile base buildings" idea, too (Working on a CoH2: MC idea).

Several things could use some re-thinking, though.
-Your doctrine lacks a focus beyond mobility (which makes it fall victim to what made PE a bit odd). I think it should focus on a "mobile defense" style where it has a mediocre early game (small initial territory) leading to impressive mid game (light-medium vehicles of all sorts that can gain the map-control advantage), but in late game where it gets outclassed by the other factions it must rely on those light vehicles to respond to enemy flanks, while heavier units hold back enemy pushes.
-If this faction only has a single infantry unit, that's kind of boring and would probably lead to blobbing (just see CoH1 PE Panzergrenadier blobs). I suggest adding a cannon-fodder line infantry, like a Cosncript-Osttruppen hybrid. Then, make Guastatori support infantry that scale into combat infantry, and make these cannon-fodder units combat infantry that scale into support infantry.
-Since you practically get a free unit that 1)buffs friendly units, 2) has incredible utility (recon to arty to smoke) AND 3) have their own guns by teching up, their costs should be increased. For example, your Command P4 could use 400MP 150 FU if it could do all that you say it could.
-Shooting down planes is independent of accuracy. It's all about RNG, because planes die to the shell "deflecting" off. A different Vet 1 ability for your Gebrigsflak?
-Some units have role overlap. You have mobile AT with the Marder II, why would they not save up for a Semovente 75/34 that probably scales better in late game? Or, if the Marder II is extremely effective as a mobile ATG, why go for a Semovente? (The Nashorn is fine, if it's gun has the same stats as a regular Pak 43)
-That Veterancy might be a bit broken. Units gain a bit too much utility and firepower.
--Passive suppression or Passive Sprint is pretty OP, especially if your cheap core infantry with LMGs could do it.
--Increased capture rate for team weapons is also a bit overboard. --Letting EVERY vehicle that hits Vet 3 capture points is also pretty overboard considering the Soviets can only do it with weapons disabled. Even if they cap slowly they still cap and fight at the same time.
-Doctrines could use some timing adjustments.
--Mines could come earlier for your doctrines. 0CP is fine as USF get Riflemen mines (plus sandbags) at that time, and WM gets Tellers stock.
--Recon should arrive at 4CPs or later.
--Panzerjaegers come way too late at 5CP. Most elite infantry should be on the field by 3CP. Plus, they are a tiny easily-wiped 3-man squad. 1-2CP would be fine.
--Cannone da 90/53 comes too late. Should come no later than 8CP. If it's essentially an ATG with 360-degree traverse, it should require a fuel investment, too.
--Carro Armato P26/40 is overpriced. That tank wouldn't have won an engagement against an M4 Sherman. 300MP 90FU would be a much better price.
--Sd.Kfz 165 Hummel: for an artillery piece it's overpriced. Take a look at the M7B1 Priest.

Aside from these, it's pretty good (although they would probably throw a huge wrench into faction balance). Although, I might ask, where are those AB41 armored cars? Also implementing the Semovente da 90/53 would be nice.
4 Apr 2016, 15:22 PM
#11
avatar of Grittle

Posts: 177

Thank you, Highfive, for saving my eyes.

This could certainly work. Wonderful faction layout, although I foresee Guards and Zook spam. I had the "mobile base buildings" idea, too (Working on a CoH2: MC idea).

Several things could use some re-thinking, though.
-Your doctrine lacks a focus beyond mobility (which makes it fall victim to what made PE a bit odd). I think it should focus on a "mobile defense" style where it has a mediocre early game (small initial territory) leading to impressive mid game (light-medium vehicles of all sorts that can gain the map-control advantage), but in late game where it gets outclassed by the other factions it must rely on those light vehicles to respond to enemy flanks, while heavier units hold back enemy pushes.
-If this faction only has a single infantry unit, that's kind of boring and would probably lead to blobbing (just see CoH1 PE Panzergrenadier blobs). I suggest adding a cannon-fodder line infantry, like a Cosncript-Osttruppen hybrid. Then, make Guastatori support infantry that scale into combat infantry, and make these cannon-fodder units combat infantry that scale into support infantry.
-Since you practically get a free unit that 1)buffs friendly units, 2) has incredible utility (recon to arty to smoke) AND 3) have their own guns by teching up, their costs should be increased. For example, your Command P4 could use 400MP 150 FU if it could do all that you say it could.
-Shooting down planes is independent of accuracy. It's all about RNG, because planes die to the shell "deflecting" off. A different Vet 1 ability for your Gebrigsflak?
-Some units have role overlap. You have mobile AT with the Marder II, why would they not save up for a Semovente 75/34 that probably scales better in late game? Or, if the Marder II is extremely effective as a mobile ATG, why go for a Semovente? (The Nashorn is fine, if it's gun has the same stats as a regular Pak 43)
-That Veterancy might be a bit broken. Units gain a bit too much utility and firepower.
--Passive suppression or Passive Sprint is pretty OP, especially if your cheap core infantry with LMGs could do it.
--Increased capture rate for team weapons is also a bit overboard. --Letting EVERY vehicle that hits Vet 3 capture points is also pretty overboard considering the Soviets can only do it with weapons disabled. Even if they cap slowly they still cap and fight at the same time.
-Doctrines could use some timing adjustments.
--Mines could come earlier for your doctrines. 0CP is fine as USF get Riflemen mines (plus sandbags) at that time, and WM gets Tellers stock.
--Recon should arrive at 4CPs or later.
--Panzerjaegers come way too late at 5CP. Most elite infantry should be on the field by 3CP. Plus, they are a tiny easily-wiped 3-man squad. 1-2CP would be fine.
--Cannone da 90/53 comes too late. Should come no later than 8CP. If it's essentially an ATG with 360-degree traverse, it should require a fuel investment, too.
--Carro Armato P26/40 is overpriced. That tank wouldn't have won an engagement against an M4 Sherman. 300MP 90FU would be a much better price.
--Sd.Kfz 165 Hummel: for an artillery piece it's overpriced. Take a look at the M7B1 Priest.

Aside from these, it's pretty good (although they would probably throw a huge wrench into faction balance). Although, I might ask, where are those AB41 armored cars? Also implementing the Semovente da 90/53 would be nice.

--It does have some essence of Mobile Defense with the Outposts instead of Caches. being able to hide them in corners and protected areas like a Opel Blitz.
--It has 2 Infantry units: The Guastatori in T0, and Bersagleri in T3
--The Command Vehicles cost resources to be build, has that short stubby barrel, and while is more durable, is slower and can't do as much dps as a normal P4 or other normal variants.
--It increases the RNG chance of shooting down planes. and also has more range overall in evlavated mode.
--Marder is a stopgap that cheaper, faster, but far less durable and has less penetration. the 75/34 is more late game. think of the launched SU-76 and SU-85. but in better positions in the tech tree.
--The Vets you see are examples of what could it be, I'm not about to write down a giant spreadsheet of what might or might not happen on what vet combination you choose.
--The passive suppression on the T4 command tank is only for the mgs on your vehicles.
--The Topfmines, I was afraid of early spam because it was to be a teller mine, but costing less munitions. but I can change that
--Recon too
-- Panzerjaegers has 3 Panzershrecks that they can switch too, I'm not about to let that come earlier as it would negate alot of light vehicle play too early.
-- Still, a Pak 43 that requires even less maintenance than a regular Pak 43...
--I know its not really a heavy tank. but I was pushing the historical boundaries on that one.
--I was thinking of the PE Hummel when pricing this one.

I could not find a place for the AB41. maybe in a commmander

Im thinking of replacing the Nashorn with the 90/53 Tank. still tinkering on that.
4 Apr 2016, 15:28 PM
#12
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2051 | Subs: 1

Italian Army is already ingame:


just play with osttruppen, stugs and pak 40 and build nothing else.

after 20min you press surrender or altf4 automatically, no matter the gamemode.


DONE!
4 Apr 2016, 16:27 PM
#13
avatar of General Tao

Posts: 48

IMO this faction looks ridiculously overpowered. I don't mean the prices of the units themselves (although they seem far too low for what you get). I mean this faction is like OKW in that you have pretty much everything you could want without needing a doctrine at all, with a non-traditional vet system (now coupled with multiple command auras) that would take huge amounts of time resources and patches in order to balance properly - i.e. OKW on steroids

Simple question to Grittle - where do you think the weaknesses lie in the army? What can't it do? Heck, nearly all your infantry have AT snare (even the motorcycle!), you get a nondoc heavy tank destroyer (in fact a TD at every tier + panzershreck elite inf), you even get non-doc abilities that are from other armies' doctrines (smoke bomb, recon, etc.).

You say they have "limited infantry and medium/heavy tank resources" but this isn't true at all - they have limited variety in infantry, sure, but then you give them so many options that all of their units are fully versatile and can easily adapt as tier progression occurs.

TBH this might as well be called "Elite SS Final Solution Death Nazi Army", IMO it looks like it would easily roflstomp brits (neberwerfer), US (T0 infantry spam into vehicles), and SU (lol - SU wouldn't stand a chance)

My advice would be to create a mod for it and go test it out, it's pretty hard to argue about this on paper.
4 Apr 2016, 16:51 PM
#14
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2148 | Subs: 15

4 Apr 2016, 18:32 PM
#15
avatar of Grittle

Posts: 177

IMO this faction looks ridiculously overpowered. I don't mean the prices of the units themselves (although they seem far too low for what you get). I mean this faction is like OKW in that you have pretty much everything you could want without needing a doctrine at all, with a non-traditional vet system (now coupled with multiple command auras) that would take huge amounts of time resources and patches in order to balance properly - i.e. OKW on steroids

Simple question to Grittle - where do you think the weaknesses lie in the army? What can't it do? Heck, nearly all your infantry have AT snare (even the motorcycle!), you get a nondoc heavy tank destroyer (in fact a TD at every tier + panzershreck elite inf), you even get non-doc abilities that are from other armies' doctrines (smoke bomb, recon, etc.).

You say they have "limited infantry and medium/heavy tank resources" but this isn't true at all - they have limited variety in infantry, sure, but then you give them so many options that all of their units are fully versatile and can easily adapt as tier progression occurs.


The Prices on the units matter, the price I put on the units is how well they perform. for instance, compare the price of the Panzer 3 to a T34/76. 240 Manpower 80 Fuel to 300 Manpower 80 Fuel. So you should think that the T34/76 should perform marginally better because it costs more. Now it does'nt really apply in reality (COUGH OBERS COUGH). But its the theory that matters.

Now the main weakness of the HGK is a few things

-Lack of Heavy Armor Non-Doc
-Lack of Infantry Non-Doc
-Lack of any heavy turtling power Non-Doc
-Lack of Auto-Firing Arty Non-Doc
-No "Mid-Game" Main Medium tank (T34, Sherman, P4, P4J)

The Heavy Armor is noticable, the Nashorn itself is really not that durable. the P40 is not a heavy tank. and the Hummel is a big priest. so there's that

On the Infantry Side, The Guastatori are Sub-Par Grenadiers with Sub-Par rifles with the upgrade of getting Sub-Par LMGs, a flamer, or a Minesweeper and AT Rifle(I put that there so they couldn't get a LMG afterwards, also if you skip T3) and instead of having grenades, they lay down mines and repair.

Bersagleri, unlike volks, are 4-manned, take more pop cap, cost more, and are accessed later than Volks, Rifles, or other zooka blobberino macaroni and cheeserino oxicleaner Infantry.

Aside from the Supply Defense Doctrine, they don't have that much sim-city emplacements and rely on a Mobile Defense Strats to hold large ground.

Aside from the Doctrinal Mortar and Mortar Emplacement, non of the Arty the HGK recieves can autofire. though not much of a weakness, it's no leigfest.

The P4H the HGK has is like the Panther for the Ostheer. but arrives earlier and not like a panther. the HGK's mid-game armor is the Panzer 3 a more lighter-side "medium" tank.

Also, the HGK's heavy use of Light Armor can fall easy prey to the USF and SU's BB gun AT. while be moderately useful against the Brits because of the Mobility and most of the Brit's AT are "Heavy-Hitters with a Long Reload" like the Firefly would be too much of an overkill for the light armor.

But I enjoy your arguments, keep at it. ;)
22 Apr 2016, 18:35 PM
#16
avatar of Grittle

Posts: 177

Updated some units based on feedback and the recent updates. Changes are on the OP.
22 Apr 2016, 18:50 PM
#17
avatar of MissCommissar

Posts: 673

So much wrote, but answer will be short:

ITALIANS. CAN'T. INTO. WAR!!!

Of course, we can't make Japan as effective 3rd faction, cos... they hadn't so much in armory.

But... we have some eastern europe countries, which were occupied and had to support Reich. What about Czechs? They had a lot of their own in arsenal.

22 Apr 2016, 18:54 PM
#18
avatar of Gdot

Posts: 1143 | Subs: 1

This is looking more and more feasible. I hope the devs see this.
22 Apr 2016, 19:00 PM
#19
avatar of Hitman5

Posts: 467

Looks nice though I'm not sure why they need 3 non-doctrinal tank destroyers. The Marder III Ausf. M was a pretty potent TD with the Panzer Elite so I think that + Nashorn would be fine. Seems underpriced as well. Would love to see the Jagdpanther in a doctrine.
22 Apr 2016, 19:12 PM
#20
avatar of Kamzil118

Posts: 455

You have placed plenty of details into this Italian-German Faction of yours. Normally I would be appalled by the thought of the Italians, but your details have persuaded me to believe that this is a viable faction which I may enjoy other than the regular German forces in Europe.
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