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russian armor

Black Prince Poll

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19 Jul 2021, 08:39 AM
#41
avatar of Harry

Posts: 159



Wrong answer. One of the few Carro Armato P 40s used by RSI (Repubblica Sociale Italiana). This tank was abandoned at the end of May 1945 in Milan.


Regardless, still, P40 performs no better than a Sherman. So, what, you want the whole Italian army in the game only to have P40(which is most likely to be doctrinal) as their best tank? If you think M15s are good enough, then go ahead and build an Italian roster that only has M15 as their best non-doc tank.
19 Jul 2021, 08:41 AM
#42
avatar of waasdijki

Posts: 76

I would like to see a p43 and panther 2 for the axis factions as both tanks where designed in 1943. we now have a fantasy setting according to many of you so you can't argue against this
19 Jul 2021, 08:50 AM
#43
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2098 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jul 2021, 08:39 AMHarry

Regardless, still, P40 performs no better than a Sherman. So, what, you want the whole Italian army in the game only to have P40(which is most likely to be doctrinal) as their best tank? If you think M15s are good enough, then go ahead and build an Italian roster that only has M15 as their best non-doc tank.


I think Italy has enough units for the faction: M15/42 main tank and Semovente da 75/34 and Semovente da 90/53 as anti-tank. P26/40 doctrinal tank with the ability to switch between ordinary and HEAT shells.
19 Jul 2021, 09:18 AM
#44
avatar of Harry

Posts: 159



I think Italy has enough units for the faction: M15/42 main tank and Semovente da 75/34 and Semovente da 90/53 as anti-tank. P26/40 doctrinal tank with the ability to switch between ordinary and HEAT shells.


The ideas are good, but the balance would be too hard to achieve. M15 can't do anything against any Allies Mediums( or even UK's Infantry tanks). 75/34 and 90/53, on the other hand, as the other SPGs are the hardest to balance category. You can't give 90/53 more than 60 range, fast ROF, and mobility simultaneously because, oh well, it just ends up like another Su-76. 75/34 will most likely become an Italian Stug. I know they are testing switching ammo for Stug III in CoH3, but I suspect it will most likely get removed since we all remember how op it was in CoH2 about six years ago(when Stug III main gun had AOE).
19 Jul 2021, 10:26 AM
#45
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

I would like to see a p43 and panther 2 for the axis factions as both tanks where designed in 1943. we now have a fantasy setting according to many of you so you can't argue against this


I mean, they are literally not the same.

The BP at least was designed, and built and tested and worked (slowly). It just never got driven out to the front.

Unlike the P2, or any other outlandish designs like the Maus which had nothing but an empty hull.
19 Jul 2021, 10:35 AM
#46
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2098 | Subs: 2



I mean, they are literally not the same.

The BP at least was designed, and built and tested and worked (slowly). It just never got driven out to the front.

Unlike the P2, or any other outlandish designs like the Maus which had nothing but an empty hull.


And not that he did not participate and not even close to being in the war (Especially in Italy). Once again, this is nonsense. Today it is the Black Prince, tomorrow it is T-44, IS-3 and so on. All this just creates a precedent that the game would turn from a game based on the Second World War into a World of Tanks.
19 Jul 2021, 10:40 AM
#47
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1



And not that he did not participate and not even close to being in the war (Especially in Italy). Once again, this is nonsense. Today it is the Black Prince, tomorrow it is T-44, IS-3 and so on. All this just creates a precedent that the game would turn from a game based on the Second World War into a World of Tanks.


Loads of things in CoH are nonsense.

Tactical V2s, Ai pilot goliaths, sturmtiger barrages.

There's a clear purpose as to why they would allow parity in heavy tanks, given they are such a large part of the game's meta, and the allies did indeed build and test the vehicles (but never sent them anywhere)

The Russians already have a late war heavy tank in service, so there's no need to include anything that never saw service.
19 Jul 2021, 10:42 AM
#48
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jul 2021, 00:47 AMPip


Exceedingly unlikely, since Relic are almost certainly going to be selling vehicle camouflage again. It's also possible they might extend that system to infantry, either through camouflage patterns, or even uniform variations.


But then they could sell 1 skin / Churchill variant and not only 1 skin / tank type
19 Jul 2021, 10:44 AM
#49
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2098 | Subs: 2



Loads of things in CoH are nonsense.

Tactical V2s, Ai pilot goliaths, sturmtiger barrages.

There's a clear purpose as to why they would allow parity in heavy tanks, given they are such a large part of the game's meta, and the allies did indeed build and test the vehicles (but never sent them anywhere)

The Russians already have a late war heavy tank in service, so there's no need to include anything that never saw service.


The British have it too, so what's stopping us from shoving the IS-3? Just because. Once again, we will remain in the time frame and units of the Second World War, all the same, units can be bent as you like for the sake of balance.
19 Jul 2021, 10:53 AM
#50
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1



The British have it too, so what's stopping us from shoving the IS-3? Just because. Once again, we will remain in the time frame and units of the Second World War, all the same, units can be bent as you like for the sake of balance.


The BP was in the time frame and units of WW2. It never driving to the front lines doesn't mean it wasn't roaming around under its own power before the end of the war.

A slight allowance for the UKF to fill out a tank role it doesn't otherwise have an appropriate unit for is not the same as picking the IS-3 when the IS-2 is already filling that niche.
19 Jul 2021, 11:00 AM
#51
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2098 | Subs: 2



The BP was in the time frame and units of WW2. It never driving to the front lines doesn't mean it wasn't roaming around under its own power before the end of the war.

A slight allowance for the UKF to fill out a tank role it doesn't otherwise have an appropriate unit for is not the same as picking the IS-3 when the IS-2 is already filling that niche.


No, I was not. By taking a certain time frame, you accept their limitations. That's it, the end of the discussion. The Black Prince is still in testing after the end of the war. If you want to go beyond the limits - take the operation "Unthinkable" with its tanks not in time for the war: Black Prince, Centurrion, T-44, IS-3. There are no restrictions here. And there is a huge scope for imagination.
19 Jul 2021, 11:07 AM
#52
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

The Black Prince is still in testing after the end of the war.


But it was fabricated before the end of the war. And could have been driven to the front. Just like a V2 'could' have been used tactically, and that's all the justification we apparently need to drop one onto an infantryman's head.

The hardware existed.
19 Jul 2021, 11:09 AM
#53
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



But it was fabricated before the end of the war. And could have been driven to the front.


There is literal proof that it never was



Just like a V2 'could' have been used tactically, and that's all the justification we apparently need to drop one onto an infantryman's head.


They were. They did not hit, but they were used tactically (I think they used it on the so called Ludendorff-Bridge). But it is still a garbage move imo that V2 was implemented this way

19 Jul 2021, 11:10 AM
#54
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2098 | Subs: 2



But it was fabricated before the end of the war. And could have been driven to the front. Just like a V2 'could' have been used tactically, and that's all the justification we apparently need to drop one onto an infantryman's head.

The hardware existed.


V2 was used tactically, they tried to blow up the bridge, I don't remember exactly, need to look for information in more detail.
19 Jul 2021, 11:12 AM
#55
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

There is literal proof that it never was

Unless I am wildly off the mark, the BP was produced in 1945, and tested in the latter half of the same year? Scrapped because of the impending (also delivered in 45) centurion?

They were. They did not hit, but they were used tactically. But it is still a garbage move imo that V2 was implemented this way


Against a bridge. Which they missed. By 40 miles. Not quite the same, but surely you get the point that material in CoH2 has always been used liberally compared to reality and this is nothing new.
19 Jul 2021, 11:19 AM
#56
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518


Unless I am wildly off the mark, the BP was produced in 1945, and tested in the latter half of the same year? Scrapped because of the impending (also delivered in 45) centurion?


There are claims that these tanks were sent to the front lines but didn't arrive in time. This was not the case. Unlike the A41 that was indeed sent for front line trials (that it was too late for), the Black Prince I was not. Transporting this tank was a difficult task, as 40 ton trailers used to transport British tanks were too weak for this 50 ton giant.


- https://warspot.net/316-black-prince (Crecer provided this article earlier)

There are also numerous other sources that make it clear that this tank was never used


Against a bridge. Which they missed. By 40 miles. Not quite the same, but surely you get the point that material in CoH2 has always been used liberally compared to reality and this is nothing new.


But implementing a tank that was never used is not quite the same as implementing a ability that was used. It is still BS that V2 strikes were in CoH1 but far from being the same.

Also 40 miles is the max distance. They fired several rockets and one came as close as 250 to 730 meters
19 Jul 2021, 11:47 AM
#57
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1201

V2 strikes never were in Coh. I guess you are referring to the V1.

That still isn't an argument to include the BP.

You don't want Aids just because you have cancer already.
19 Jul 2021, 11:59 AM
#58
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

Man. I had to go back and check, and yes. Wrong V. It has been a long time since I played the original, Mea Culpa.

But to pivot back to how it's relevent to the BP - it's still wholly arbitraty to pretend the series is historically accurate, so long as only units which saw combat on are allowed in regardless of how wildly inaccurate they actually are.

Self piloting, spotting, autonomous RC car Goliaths are not a real thing. But so long as the box looks like a real thing, it makes it into the game, and that's fine?

But somehow it's a prototype tank actually being shipped to the front that breaks the vaunted 'immersion'.

Wanting to adhere to largely accurate units is fine. I can get it. But the BP, specifically, is a really small deviation from the norm, much less egreigous than some of their other liberties with history, and serves a clear purpose to fill out an empty spot in the roster / meta.
19 Jul 2021, 12:23 PM
#59
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518


But to pivot back to how it's relevent to the BP - it's still wholly arbitraty to pretend the series is historically accurate, so long as only units which saw combat on are allowed in regardless of how wildly inaccurate they actually are.


I always excused Relic for historical inaccuracies in the past because I always assumed that they didn't have the money for enough research. But now they have more money and also asked the community to help them.

To me it always seemd like they tried to be Historical accurate but simply ended up failing often. For instance in the Singeplayer in CoH2 you are often limited to Anti Tank rifles and Short barrel Panzer 4 as the germans, which is (more) historical accurate (than Panzerschreck and Panther in 1942). They even went as far as giving Grens a AT-Riflegrenade (with a special icon that was never used again) instead of Panzerfaust in the Singleplayer missions



Self piloting, spotting, autonomous RC car Goliaths are not a real thing. But so long as the box looks like a real thing, it makes it into the game, and that's fine?


The things you mentioned are mostly caused by it being a game. I doubt Commanders in WW2 had birdseye view and radio connection to units too (although one could of course argue in favor of more realitisc goliaths (especially regarding the self spotting part), which was done by several people already, I think there is even a mod for that)




Wanting to adhere to largely accurate units is fine. I can get it. But the BP, specifically, is a really small deviation from the norm, much less egreigous than some of their other liberties with history, and serves a clear purpose to fill out an empty spot in the roster / meta.


A spot that does not need to be filled. Why would Brits need a Strong AT tank with Strong armor if they already have Archer and can have 17 pdr M10 and will face no Tiger IIs or Jagdtigers?

And why not simply give Brits 6 pdr Churchill with Tungsten rounds? Could fill the same role as Bp if really needed
19 Jul 2021, 12:24 PM
#60
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1201

Wanting to adhere to largely accurate units is fine. I can get it. But the BP, specifically, is a really small deviation from the norm, much less egreigous than some of their other liberties with history, and serves a clear purpose to fill out an empty spot in the roster / meta.
That is your opinion. My opinion is that including a Tiger equivalent to the Brits is just lazy balancing. That was the road Coh2 took in the end with mostly marginal differences remaining between the factions. In my opinion that was stale and boring.

You want to play a tank just like the Tiger? Play the Tiger.

Also the inclusion of the BP kills the whole setting this game is in. It is set in a time where the first Tiger shock set in. A year before the Allies and Soviets even started upgunning their tanks. And into that setting we place a tank that wasn't even part of the war.

And this goes beyond the Goliath not having a wire. That's pure cosmetics.
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