Sandbags nerfed enough? Nope
8 Mar 2021, 17:46 PM
#61
Posts: 359
The only two people vehemently disagreeing with this suggestion(thats been around for years btw) are two OKW mains. Hmmm, weird.
Panzer tactician is no different than a skill shot. Hardly a "Free" get out of jail card.
8 Mar 2021, 17:52 PM
#62
Posts: 1289
I was adement to only have cons keep the sandbags, but seeing how easely volks loose to upgraded rifles and sections and soviets ime are not struggeling vs volks and sandbags only cons and volks should have them with current gimmics or longer build time ofcourse.
8 Mar 2021, 20:31 PM
#63
Posts: 3600 | Subs: 1
I was adement to only have cons keep the sandbags, but seeing how easely volks loose to upgraded rifles and sections and soviets ime are not struggeling vs volks and sandbags only cons and volks should have them with current gimmics or longer build time ofcourse.
Disabling building while capping could result in a buff for the Kubel and a stronger nerf for tommies since they really need that cover to fight at full strength.
8 Mar 2021, 21:28 PM
#64
Posts: 1594
Disabling building while capping could result in a buff for the Kubel and a stronger nerf for tommies since they really need that cover to fight at full strength.
Eh, any cover will do for Sections. They beat equivalent-covered axis mainlines either way, they don't necessarily need /green/ cover.
9 Mar 2021, 08:35 AM
#65
Posts: 3600 | Subs: 1
Eh, any cover will do for Sections. They beat equivalent-covered axis mainlines either way, they don't necessarily need /green/ cover.
True but he is not going to be as much behind green cover as before. There are usually green cover closeby important capping points, the idea will be or you reach the cover first to keep the high ground or the capping circle but you're putting yourself at risk.
9 Mar 2021, 09:32 AM
#66
Posts: 4928
The ideas that Sandbags should be removed from Conscripts and Sections but not Volksgrenadiers seems a bit nuts to me. If anything Volksgrenadiers are at the top of my list for units that should not have them. They're efficient long-range focused units that nullify cover, must they also have the ability to create their own cover? I get that Sturmpioneers are overburdened with being assaulters and tank killers and builders and sweepers and mechanics, but retaining them on the unit that needs them the least (at least early game) doesn't sit right with me.
Besides you'd need to redesign Conscripts and Sections in order for them to function without Sandbags, while Volksgrenadiers might just need a slight buff and they'll recover just fine.
Besides you'd need to redesign Conscripts and Sections in order for them to function without Sandbags, while Volksgrenadiers might just need a slight buff and they'll recover just fine.
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9 Mar 2021, 12:12 PM
#67
Posts: 1820 | Subs: 2
Perhaps when giving the sandbags to Sturms, the build order would go with double Sturm opening. Have more utility with two of them on the field.
9 Mar 2021, 12:31 PM
#68
Posts: 1594
Perhaps when giving the sandbags to Sturms, the build order would go with double Sturm opening. Have more utility with two of them on the field.
They're too expensive and cost too much population to really justify it, relative to their combat performance later on in the game.
9 Mar 2021, 12:50 PM
#69
Posts: 218
If you want sandbags that will justify their cost. As for myself, I absolutely loathe the sandbag addiction that has gripped this game since almost every mainline got the ability to build them. I would be glad to see sandbags restricted to Engineers and Conscripts only.
9 Mar 2021, 12:53 PM
#70
Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8
They're too expensive and cost too much population to really justify it, relative to their combat performance later on in the game.
They cost 7 pop and perform twice as good at both, repairing and fighting then any other engineer.
Ost often ends up with 3 pios in late game, soviets with 2-3, depending on doctrines allowing repairs, UKF really depends, because bolstered inf is very pop heavy and USF is USF.
2 spios is completely in line cost-wise and performance-wise compared to what other factions get in late game. If OKW didn't had mech automatons, we'd be seeing double spio on regular basis.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
9 Mar 2021, 13:07 PM
#71
Posts: 1594
They cost 7 pop and perform twice as good at both, repairing and fighting then any other engineer.
Ost often ends up with 3 pios in late game, soviets with 2-3, depending on doctrines allowing repairs, UKF really depends, because bolstered inf is very pop heavy and USF is USF.
2 spios is completely in line cost-wise and performance-wise compared to what other factions get in late game. If OKW didn't had mech automatons, we'd be seeing double spio on regular basis.
Sturms at vet 2 and with a sweeper repair at a rate of 13.75. Pioneers (And CE) at vet2 repair at 11.6, with pioneers having 14.5 with veteran Squad Leaders. Royal Engineers also have 13.125 repair rates at 6 pop each (Bolstered). This is nowhere near "Twice as good".
They are not an unit worth having multiple of in most games.
EDIT: Two Sturmpioneers cost one less population than three CEs, REs, Pioneers, and (unbolstered) RoyEs, and for that you get far less repairing, and much less versatility. You're even paying around the same cost in Manpower.
9 Mar 2021, 13:22 PM
#72
Posts: 1515
Sturms at vet 2 and with a sweeper repair at a rate of 13.75. Pioneers (And CE) at vet2 repair at 11.6, with pioneers having 14.5 with veteran Squad Leaders. Royal Engineers also have 13.125 repair rates at 6 pop each (Bolstered). This is nowhere near "Twice as good".
They are not an unit worth having multiple of in most games.
EDIT: Two Sturmpioneers cost one less population than three CEs, REs, Pioneers, and (unbolstered) RoyEs, and for that you get far less repairing, and much less versatility. You're even paying around the same cost in Manpower.
True, but spios can at early and mid stage of the game go toe to toe with any mainline. At later stages of the game, can go toe to toe with any mainline in close quarters. They can displace infantry, can swap zooks and sweepers. What more can you want?
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9 Mar 2021, 14:53 PM
#73
Posts: 3600 | Subs: 1
Sturms at vet 2 and with a sweeper repair at a rate of 13.75. Pioneers (And CE) at vet2 repair at 11.6, with pioneers having 14.5 with veteran Squad Leaders. Royal Engineers also have 13.125 repair rates at 6 pop each (Bolstered). This is nowhere near "Twice as good".
They are not an unit worth having multiple of in most games.
EDIT: Two Sturmpioneers cost one less population than three CEs, REs, Pioneers, and (unbolstered) RoyEs, and for that you get far less repairing, and much less versatility. You're even paying around the same cost in Manpower.
It is not like OKW have a non doctrinal abiltiy to repair vehicle.
9 Mar 2021, 15:15 PM
#74
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
They cost 7 pop and perform twice as good at both, repairing and fighting then any other engineer.
Ost often ends up with 3 pios in late game, soviets with 2-3, depending on doctrines allowing repairs,
Soviets and ost ending up with this amount of engineers, because you either have 2 sweepers 1 flamer, or 1 sweeper 2 flamer. Also its debatable who is over-all better in fighting, past early game. Vannila SPs have more DPS upclose, but Flamer engis\pios arent suffer from DPS lose with droped models because all of it is concentrated in 1 model.
Same reason sometimes you see ppl playing more agressive SP builds, when they pick firesturm commander.
UKF really depends, because bolstered inf is very pop heavy and USF is USF.
Same reason why UKF is not ending up with a lot of engis, because they dont have flamer. But UKF get more engis, because of the snare and maybe giving them piats. But you dont need a lot of sappers if you have bolster, one is usually enouth for all the repairs you need.
9 Mar 2021, 15:22 PM
#75
Posts: 1820 | Subs: 2
2x SP is not a deal breaker imo, they give great value for your army. I also think that you guys are going way into numbers here, when you play the game you probably wont feel that you are lacking of mp just because you have 2x SP.
9 Mar 2021, 16:00 PM
#76
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
2x SP is not a deal breaker imo, they give great value for your army
They still do not scale well against Allied vetted and upgraded infantry. There's a reason no one uses double Sturmpioneer openings at higher level games (except for some urban maps perhaps). They will bleed too much past min 5 and then you're stuck with two 300 manpower squads that can't do much anymore and you're missing a Volks squad or have terrible tech timing.
Moving sandbags to Sturmpioneers is a bad idea. You can't realistically get multiple of them without significant changes. You need their early game power to get an edge, you can't waste time building sandbags with them. They barely have any use for them themselves either. So your Volks are either going to be off significantly worse or you have to sacrifice the time of your most valuable early game unit. In either case OKW's early to mid game would get nerfed hard.
And that's ignoring the fact that they already have too many things to do.
9 Mar 2021, 16:25 PM
#77
Posts: 1594
It is not like OKW have a non doctrinal abiltiy to repair vehicle.
Correct, that's why Spios not really repairing relative to their pop/mp cost doesn't really matter. You can get the Mech HQ to supplement them, and you'll only need a single one because of it.
That's not the point of the argument though.
They still do not scale well against Allied vetted and upgraded infantry. There's a reason no one uses double Sturmpioneer openings at higher level games (except for some urban maps perhaps). They will bleed too much past min 5 and then you're stuck with two 300 manpower squads that can't do much anymore and you're missing a Volks squad or have terrible tech timing.
Moving sandbags to Sturmpioneers is a bad idea. You can't realistically get multiple of them without significant changes. You need their early game power to get an edge, you can't waste time building sandbags with them. They barely have any use for them themselves either. So your Volks are either going to be off significantly worse or you have to sacrifice the time of your most valuable early game unit. In either case OKW's early to mid game would get nerfed hard.
And that's ignoring the fact that they already have too many things to do.
Thank you, pretty much what i'm trying to convey.
9 Mar 2021, 17:21 PM
#78
Posts: 359
They still do not scale well against Allied vetted and upgraded infantry. There's a reason no one uses double Sturmpioneer openings at higher level games (except for some urban maps perhaps). They will bleed too much past min 5 and then you're stuck with two 300 manpower squads that can't do much anymore and you're missing a Volks squad or have terrible tech timing.
Moving sandbags to Sturmpioneers is a bad idea. You can't realistically get multiple of them without significant changes. You need their early game power to get an edge, you can't waste time building sandbags with them. They barely have any use for them themselves either. So your Volks are either going to be off significantly worse or you have to sacrifice the time of your most valuable early game unit. In either case OKW's early to mid game would get nerfed hard.
And that's ignoring the fact that they already have too many things to do.
Isn't it a good thing that factions have to pick and choose which strength to accentuate and what weakness to shore up?
Panzer tactician is no different than a skill shot. Hardly a "Free" get out of jail card.
9 Mar 2021, 17:41 PM
#79
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Isn't it a good thing that factions have to pick and choose which strength to accentuate and what weakness to shore up?
Its a good thing, when you have options both of which will give you significant strength and weakness as a trade off.
Lets say, if you get early nades for IS\Rifles. They will give you strength in terms of how you can get units out of cover and disadvantage will be that you delayed bolster\LVs.
In this situation, volks dont have any upper hand over early USF\UKF and sandbangs is more of a nessesity for volks, rather then a chose and even with sandbags its not garanteed that you will win the engagement.
9 Mar 2021, 17:47 PM
#80
Posts: 359
Its a good thing, when you have options both of which will give you significant strength and weakness as a trade off.
Lets say, if you get early nades for IS\Rifles. They will give you strength in terms of how you can get units out of cover and disadvantage will be that you delayed bolster\LVs.
In this situation, volks dont have any upper hand over early USF\UKF and sandbangs is more of a nessesity for volks, rather then a chose and even with sandbags its not garanteed that you will win the engagement.
I really disagree that OKW doesnt have an upperhand over those two in early game/mid. Do rifles fight well against volks early? yeah decently enough. Does that mean okw is just autolosing early game? not at all, because they have kubels, sturms and other supplemental units. No mainline should have sandbags, if you want to buff volks RA by 10% or something to compensate, go for it. But as it stands, it completely nullifies map design and other game factors that have been addressed here.
It seems like we all agree sandbags on mainlines isnt good for the game or how it was meant to be played, but the hang up is happening with people that play one specific faction. To me, thats no excuse to make the game healthier, just give volks a bit better early game firepower if thats that big of a deal(which i really think it isnt, just use map cover like everyone else, yes this goes for cons too).
Panzer tactician is no different than a skill shot. Hardly a "Free" get out of jail card.
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