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The UKF solution

Do UKF need a new combat unit to fill in the void?
Option Distribution Votes
47%
45%
8%
Total votes: 38
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
1 Dec 2019, 06:32 AM
#1
avatar of VIGNASH

Posts: 71

Been playing UKF since the patch and I figured out why this doc has been the least played with and considered weak by many since the last patch that nerfed one critical unit, infantry sections. However, this thread is not about buffing infantry sect, rather about the brit faction design.

You see, the reason why inf sect are soo critical with brits is cuz its their one and only non doc mainline 'combat' infantry. While other factions,

SOV:
-Cons
-Penals

OKW:
-Volks
-Obers

Wehrm:
-Grens
-Pgrens

USF:
-Rifles,
-Captains,
-Lieutenant
-many more

Hence, this tells us the UKF needs a bit diversity in its units. I have no personal suggestions but I think you guys could discuss what sort of unit the brits need to make them great again!
1 Dec 2019, 07:50 AM
#2
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3234 | Subs: 1

Sappers were supposed to fill that role, but in typical new shit fashion were bat shit op. Revisiting that with a gentle hand might be acceptable.
1 Dec 2019, 07:53 AM
#3
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 314

Maybe can do something at 5men squad upgrade and rework tech tree……
1 Dec 2019, 08:01 AM
#4
avatar of VIGNASH

Posts: 71

Maybe can do something at 5men squad upgrade and rework tech tree……


How so? Personally, i think 5-men upgrade is fine. To address the faction itself i think we dont need to buff infan section rather add a late game unit like obers for OKW.
1 Dec 2019, 08:19 AM
#5
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2717 | Subs: 2

There could be something like a Canadian Assault Section or something added.
1 Dec 2019, 08:36 AM
#6
avatar of VIGNASH

Posts: 71

There could be something like a Canadian Assault Section or something added.


An assualt close-medium range unit like Pgrens would be a great choice. Is there anything like that in the campaign?
1 Dec 2019, 09:01 AM
#7
avatar of Vermillion_Hawk

Posts: 32

I am all for Canadian Storm/Shock Troops or ANZAC Special Forces or the like. I just regret that it's next to impossible that they'll get proper voice acting at this stage, and the quality of the UKF voice acting is honestly more than half the reason why I still play the faction at all.
1 Dec 2019, 09:28 AM
#8
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2717 | Subs: 2



An assualt close-medium range unit like Pgrens would be a great choice. Is there anything like that in the campaign?


I am not sure what you mean. There is no other campaign outside of the Soviet and USF ones in this game, that is unless you count the Theater of War as one as well which I don't.

There was a Canadian rifle section in the British Liberation of Caen campaign in CoH however.

And there was also a 4 man Canadian Assault Squad armed with Thompson SMGs and grenades in the Europe at War mod for the campaign.

Sadly they would be extremely similar to the assault section upgrade that was added in the new commander so I doubt they'll add such a squad to the UKF as well as a mortar which they desperately need sadly unless those 2 are replaced with something else in the Lend-Lease Assault Regiment.
1 Dec 2019, 09:34 AM
#9
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 314



How so? Personally, i think 5-men upgrade is fine. To address the faction itself i think we dont need to buff infan section rather add a late game unit like obers for OKW.

Maybe like Soviet 7men upgrade?Or when have some tech level or upgrade remove Tommy out cover debuff?
1 Dec 2019, 12:23 PM
#10
avatar of Latch

Posts: 431

Many changes can be added without having to add any new unit to the game that would "Make UKF great again".

- Give the UC an ability to cap points if it doesnt have any upgrades (and whilst we are on this, allow MG's to enter it....Units can't fire from it).

When you Vs OKW for example the typical scenario is sturms at your fuel/cut off that is then reinforced by volks/fuzies whilst the kuble caps their section of the map. If you go ealy UC to counter this play youve lost a hell of a lot of resources in the first few moments of the game because you simply can't cap and in turn are constantly on the back foot.

- Non doc mortar. Remove mortar pit as is, replace it with an empty pit that 2 mortars can enter that gives extra protection and range similar to current pit but make the mortar without the pit garrison slightly less range allowing for this stupid design they have of "defensive" (man the pit) "agressive" (just build mortars).

- Slightly buff the AEC's AI damage. Its the only light vehicle that UKF has, it shouldnt be a master at both but it needs more fear factor vs infantry as now its only really good at countering vehicles and if they dont build any light vehicles, you've just gimped your tank battles as you run around tickling enemies with the AEC before the P4 arrives, Or!:

- Remove the Bofors OR AEC restriction

- Make the assault tommies non doc, remove WP nades and only have them unlock with regular nade tech/ replace it with regular nades.

As it stands now, you HAVE to go commandos to get that extra Umph, I have sang praises for the lend lease commander but all in all, its a trap doctrine. It looks great and it fills all the holes that UKF have (CQC unit, mobile mortar AI light vehicle) but then, you've just picked a commander that isn't a commander so all you're left with is feild repairs (I mean, does anyone actually build the tanks other than for panic mode?).

Look at the new OKW commander, the BS one that everyone picks because it counters everything:

- Fuzies (Spammable, G43s, fausts)
- Smoke drop (counters MG's/ATG's)
- IR STG44's (Cloak detection on infantry because, why not)
- Panzer commander (drop super fast arty etc)
- Tiger 1 (Stall for tiger, enough said)

So an already fully fleshed out army, gets more whilst the newest UKF commander just polyfills holes but then leaves you with nothing.

I can't remember if they changed the accuracy or the damage of tommie squads but I have noticed on far too many occasions for it to just be RNG or confirmation bias, that 1v1 with sturms rushing tommies from max range, you will be lucky to drop even 1 model before they get next to you and then just melt your squads, I think something needs looking at there too, not saying it should go back to pre patch, but maybe it was just a bit too much of a nerf?

I mean after all it was to counter UKF blobs right? I mean thank god it was only UKF that blobbed and not OKW with Obers thrown in the middle or OST with G43 gren blobs, right!
1 Dec 2019, 17:40 PM
#11
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4490

Start Sappers with Lee Enfields (akin to Conscipt Mosin) and let them upgrade to an Assault Sapper status with grants them a full compliment of STEN's (akin Assault Engineer M3). British Forces lack any stock offensive units, these would work very well in tandem with Infantry Sections.


Also make Bren guns more accessible, my number one problem with UKF and USF are how hard it is to outfit all your troops with Bren/BAR, when I am facing MG 42 Grens and StG Volks. Same goes for the inverse, I find it very easy to field MG 42 Grens and StG Volks. Grenadiers get their upgrade unlocked for free, and can upgrade anywhere (Volks can upgrade in enemy territory); Sections need to purchase their weapon rack, send their men to HQ to physically pick up the weapon, and in the end it's not cheaper nor stronger than it's counterpart.

It is a whole lot more effort than a simple one-click maschinengewehr. And it's not just me, CoH2 casts I've watched, random games I've watched, tournament castings, even during the huge tournament recently I have seen this. British and American soldiers forgoing Brens and Bars but still facing down upgraded Volks and Grens.
1 Dec 2019, 19:00 PM
#12
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 384

There could be something like a Canadian Assault Section or something added.


Canadian Stormtrooper section (nuts)

I would love that! Mostly because I am Canadian ^_^
1 Dec 2019, 21:50 PM
#13
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6313 | Subs: 1

First issue: UKF unit repertoire is limited compared to other factions. Exacerbated by lack of specific roles and over relying on things like emplacements or their base Howitzers.
Any hole in the faction was filled by either OP non doctrinal (release Bofor, bolstered IS, original PIAT, OG Comet, etc.) or doctrinal units (flamers, commandos, Croc, PArty Cover, Land Mattress).

Having less units available means it's harder to fix a problem in a more granular way.

Lack of elite unit (see issue n°2), either good light AI vehicle or stalling light AT (Been a Puma which then stall for Hammer/Anvil), indirect fire/non gimmicky flamer.

Issue 2: never really fixing scaling through Bolster, Grenade, Rack weapons, healing.
Compared to Rifles, they already start as 5 guys so it has been easier to balance them. We are still pretending here that Bolster is an optional rather than a mandatory upgrade.


Giving UKF a new unit or reworking RE to fulfill that role (without going back into been a problem in a similar fashion to old RET spam) fixes a single problem but not sure that would fix the faction if the solution remains balanced. It's like saying that somehow OH was fixed once they reworked PGs.

1 Dec 2019, 23:34 PM
#14
avatar of Euan

Posts: 99

I agree with the premise. If you consider commander call-ins also, you can add another 3~4 frontline inf types to each of those armies, but again none to Brits (unless you consider Commandos as "frontline"). So yeah they are super limited. Also, The original design (two strong units, defensive Tommies and offensive sappers) was fair enough but as people figured out how to use them, they were discovered to be OP and got some well-deserved nerfs. The problem is that now, Tommies in green cover lose to Sturmpios approaching sometimes even across red cover, and Sappers are now just Pios without a flamer upgrade. So yeah, I don't know which, but either reverts or new units are needed.

I went back in detail over the patch notes to see what happened. Basically, it's a back-and-forth cycle of reverts where it was never decided if they should fulfill that original role, or turned into something else. As it stands, we fell into the trap of just turning Tommies into Grens and Sappers into Pioneers, because that was the easiest way to balance them. Likewise PIAT was turned into a Zook, accurate AT gun was turned into a Pak, Sniper Snare was replaced with regular Snare on Sappers. But as everyone knows, now the faction can't stand without those strong units / abilities and with all the holes. I think we have 3 options.

  • Fulfill the initial design idea by reverting 2/3 of the nerfs, but increasing the price to match performance (e.g. 300MP Tommies / 260MP Sappers).
  • Try and fill the holes. I mean you could make Assault Sections, Mortar, and Sapper Flamer non-doc and you've filled most of the holes. On the other hand you've just made a re-skinned Wehr.
  • Do something different and interesting (new unit or whatever). It's a nice idea the truth is that we can't expect new models or anything at this stage of the game.


jump backJump back to quoted post1 Dec 2019, 12:23 PMLatch
- Give the UC an ability to cap points if it doesnt have any upgrades


I think that's a good idea and could fix a lot more than it sounds. Tommies used to cap points faster to fix the expected lack of units & offensive power of UKF original design, it was taken away because... I don't know, because unique abilities are bad?

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Dec 2019, 12:23 PMLatch
- Slightly buff the AEC's AI damage.


This I disagree, it had an MG buff a while back, any more would be OP. It's one of the only good units just now.

We are still pretending here that Bolster is an optional rather than a mandatory upgrade.


True that. I find the only valid strategy against OKW now is early bolster & Mills bombs. And it works fine, so I don't know, maybe Tommies are fine now and UKF players just need to remember to Bolster within the first 4 minutes these days.
2 Dec 2019, 01:16 AM
#15
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 377

Here is some of my ideas:
1. Reworking royal engineer, let them stat with rifles like Mr someguy said above and have upgrades pit behind aec/Bofors tech. Aec tech unlock sten gun with M3 profile and may be stock flamers, Bofors tech unlock Vicker K and maybe some teller mine clone. By this, we have sort of hammer/anvil choice right from platoon cp.

2. Replace bofor with a rework valentine as an AI light vehicle with improved AOE. The valentine command tank in the arty regiment can be leave as it is or replace by an artillery officer squad.

3. Give Universal carrier a smoke discharger upgrade locked behind platoon cp. It Woking just like smoke pot on the valentine or Sherman and of course will locked out flame and mg upgrade. This give ukf a smoke option outside of the mortar pit and a smoke + pyro combo will offer garrison denial effect without having to add an actual mortar team in the roster.

4. Just add a mortar team in platoon cp, mortar call in in doctrine doctrine can be replaced by pack với drop at increased CP.

5. Add an elite unit base on commando/air landing officer models in company CP, offer an ober equivalent.
2 Dec 2019, 06:58 AM
#16
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 137

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Dec 2019, 12:23 PMLatch
Many changes can be added without having to add any new unit to the game that would "Make UKF great again".

- Give the UC an ability to cap points if it doesnt have any upgrades (and whilst we are on this, allow MG's to enter it....Units can't fire from it).

When you Vs OKW for example the typical scenario is sturms at your fuel/cut off that is then reinforced by volks/fuzies whilst the kuble caps their section of the map. If you go ealy UC to counter this play youve lost a hell of a lot of resources in the first few moments of the game because you simply can't cap and in turn are constantly on the back foot.

- Non doc mortar. Remove mortar pit as is, replace it with an empty pit that 2 mortars can enter that gives extra protection and range similar to current pit but make the mortar without the pit garrison slightly less range allowing for this stupid design they have of "defensive" (man the pit) "agressive" (just build mortars).

- Slightly buff the AEC's AI damage. Its the only light vehicle that UKF has, it shouldnt be a master at both but it needs more fear factor vs infantry as now its only really good at countering vehicles and if they dont build any light vehicles, you've just gimped your tank battles as you run around tickling enemies with the AEC before the P4 arrives, Or!:

- Remove the Bofors OR AEC restriction

- Make the assault tommies non doc, remove WP nades and only have them unlock with regular nade tech/ replace it with regular nades.

As it stands now, you HAVE to go commandos to get that extra Umph, I have sang praises for the lend lease commander but all in all, its a trap doctrine. It looks great and it fills all the holes that UKF have (CQC unit, mobile mortar AI light vehicle) but then, you've just picked a commander that isn't a commander so all you're left with is feild repairs (I mean, does anyone actually build the tanks other than for panic mode?).

Look at the new OKW commander, the BS one that everyone picks because it counters everything:

- Fuzies (Spammable, G43s, fausts)
- Smoke drop (counters MG's/ATG's)
- IR STG44's (Cloak detection on infantry because, why not)
- Panzer commander (drop super fast arty etc)
- Tiger 1 (Stall for tiger, enough said)

So an already fully fleshed out army, gets more whilst the newest UKF commander just polyfills holes but then leaves you with nothing.

I can't remember if they changed the accuracy or the damage of tommie squads but I have noticed on far too many occasions for it to just be RNG or confirmation bias, that 1v1 with sturms rushing tommies from max range, you will be lucky to drop even 1 model before they get next to you and then just melt your squads, I think something needs looking at there too, not saying it should go back to pre patch, but maybe it was just a bit too much of a nerf?

I mean after all it was to counter UKF blobs right? I mean thank god it was only UKF that blobbed and not OKW with Obers thrown in the middle or OST with G43 gren blobs, right!



I agree 100%
2 Dec 2019, 08:41 AM
#17
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1961 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Dec 2019, 12:23 PMLatch
- IR STG44's (Cloak detection on infantry because, why not)

Cloak detection on a doctrinal upgrade for expensive elite infantry. Not sure why this is a problem.


jump backJump back to quoted post1 Dec 2019, 12:23 PMLatch
I mean after all it was to counter UKF blobs right? I mean thank god it was only UKF that blobbed and not OKW with Obers thrown in the middle or OST with G43 gren blobs, right!

You've answered your own question there. Infantry Section blobs were a bigger problem because of how cost effective they were. All they needed was Bolster and they'd snowball out of control for a cheap price (regular manpower, no munitions), leaving the faction with a huge munitions float that they could spend on spamming mines, grenades or commander abilities, further increasing the snowball effect.

Putting a halt to the dominating unupgraded IS was needed. Now that the dust has settled, there need to be some follow up changes to help fill up some of the holes that the toned down IS have left behind.
2 Dec 2019, 20:49 PM
#18
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1676

Simply revamp UC to fill an early assault unit, it later gets replaced by AEC
2 Dec 2019, 21:06 PM
#19
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 874

Simply revamp UC to fill an early assault unit, it later gets replaced by AEC


Buff literally any unit instead of sections and UC.
2 Dec 2019, 22:28 PM
#20
avatar of Euan

Posts: 99

Buff literally any unit instead of sections and UC.


Like what? Vickers is already good, so is sniper. That literally leaves Sappers or AT gun, and I don't think AT gun buff wouldh help much ;D

Tbh buff (i.e. revert nerf) Sappers might make sense,
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