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russian armor

The UKF solution

2 Dec 2019, 22:53 PM
#21
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2636

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2019, 22:28 PMEuan


Like what? Vickers is already good, so is sniper. That literally leaves Sappers or AT gun, and I don't think AT gun buff wouldh help much ;D

Tbh buff (i.e. revert nerf) Sappers might make sense,


You can buff the Bofors for all I care. Just stay away from buffing sections and UC.
3 Dec 2019, 11:29 AM
#22
avatar of Latch

Posts: 637


Cloak detection on a doctrinal upgrade for expensive elite infantry. Not sure why this is a problem.



You've answered your own question there. Infantry Section blobs were a bigger problem because of how cost effective they were. All they needed was Bolster and they'd snowball out of control for a cheap price (regular manpower, no munitions), leaving the faction with a huge munitions float that they could spend on spamming mines, grenades or commander abilities, further increasing the snowball effect.

Putting a halt to the dominating unupgraded IS was needed. Now that the dust has settled, there need to be some follow up changes to help fill up some of the holes that the toned down IS have left behind.


Why not cloak on infantry? Really? Because its bat shit bull shit. claoked infantry need cloak because otherwise they are weak at engaging, completely removing their ability to do so without any input from the other play (Bar purchasing the upgrade) at a huge range is BS not to mention the STG's are a really good upgrade as is.

Maybe section blobs were a "bigger problem" I wouldnt know I never blobbed with sections but this current patch, have a go at facing 2 obers upgraded with LMG's and a volks blob, see how well you do.

*Spoiler* Obers, more specifically vetted obers can 1v1 an MG from the front, MG's dont work here, nor can you stand in their path for more than 2 seconds before the unit is melted.

Or face a G43 blob.

God speed
3 Dec 2019, 12:01 PM
#23
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 214

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2019, 11:29 AMLatch


Why not cloak on infantry? Really? Because its bat shit bull shit. claoked infantry need cloak because otherwise they are weak at engaging, completely removing their ability to do so without any input from the other play (Bar purchasing the upgrade) at a huge range is BS not to mention the STG's are a really good upgrade as is.

Maybe section blobs were a "bigger problem" I wouldnt know I never blobbed with sections but this current patch, have a go at facing 2 obers upgraded with LMG's and a volks blob, see how well you do.

*Spoiler* Obers, more specifically vetted obers can 1v1 an MG from the front, MG's dont work here, nor can you stand in their path for more than 2 seconds before the unit is melted.

Or face a G43 blob.

God speed


1. like air strikes that delete Trucks...
2. sure u never blob:megusta: oookay so the 800mp of the abolute T4 elite AI inf with 120 mun equip win
infantry fights... well where is the problem?
3. maybe its depends on the vet and angle of attack .. frontaly 1vs1 i dont think so.

4. Maybe u try OKW and test Obers in late game.
3 Dec 2019, 12:10 PM
#24
avatar of NoktDraz

Posts: 35

Before changing IS/Sappers or adding non-doc mortars I'd recommend exploring the viability of adding an Officer unit to Platoon CP.
3 Dec 2019, 18:09 PM
#25
avatar of NorthFireZ

Posts: 193

I wouldn't recommend buffing sappers. Right now they are quite decent anti closing infantry.

I've tested their close range damage and here's what I've found.

: Vet 1 sappers can stay behind green cover and fight Sturmpios almost to a standstill. Stumpios, however, will always win.

Vet 0 5 man sappers can close in on yellow cover volks at max range and still win.

In the sapper Sten guns aren't too shabby and they are very cost effective for what they are. They just need vet in order to do anything.

The British AT gun is also the best Allied AT in the game.

Literally the ez fix to unit variety: make assault sections non doc.
3 Dec 2019, 19:14 PM
#26
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2369 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2019, 11:29 AMLatch
Why not cloak on infantry? Really? Because its bat shit bull shit. claoked infantry need cloak because otherwise they are weak at engaging, completely removing their ability to do so without any input from the other play (Bar purchasing the upgrade) at a huge range is BS not to mention the STG's are a really good upgrade as is.

It's perfectly fine for a certain unit (especially if its expensive and doctrinal) to counter another unit. This is how the game works. I'm not sure why you think it's such a problem anyway, a sniper shouldn't be anywhere near the detection range and if Commandos struggle versus IR STG44 Obers, they can be equipped with 2x elite Brens so they don't have to use their camo.


jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2019, 11:29 AMLatch
Maybe section blobs were a "bigger problem" I wouldnt know I never blobbed with sections but this current patch, have a go at facing 2 obers upgraded with LMG's and a volks blob, see how well you do.

*Spoiler* Obers, more specifically vetted obers can 1v1 an MG from the front, MG's dont work here, nor can you stand in their path for more than 2 seconds before the unit is melted.

Or face a G43 blob.God speed

UKF shouldn't really struggle with late game blobs with the Centaur, and to most extend the Cromwell, the Comet or the Churchill. All are good or excellent versus infantry. Worst case there's the AVRE or the Crocodile to demolish blobs. Bren Infantry Sections and Bren Commandos can win most if not all infantry engagements. I actually do quite well versus "OKW and G43 Gren blobs", since I'm around top 5 with UKF in randoms 3v3s.
3 Dec 2019, 19:45 PM
#27
avatar of Latch

Posts: 637


It's perfectly fine for a certain unit (especially if its expensive and doctrinal) to counter another unit. This is how the game works. I'm not sure why you think it's such a problem anyway, a sniper shouldn't be anywhere near the detection range and if Commandos struggle versus IR STG44 Obers, they can be equipped with 2x elite Brens so they don't have to use their camo.



UKF shouldn't really struggle with late game blobs with the Centaur, and to most extend the Cromwell, the Comet or the Churchill. All are good or excellent versus infantry. Worst case there's the AVRE or the Crocodile to demolish blobs. Bren Infantry Sections and Bren Commandos can win most if not all infantry engagements. I actually do quite well versus "OKW and G43 Gren blobs", since I'm around top 5 with UKF in randoms 3v3s.


3v3 != 1v1's and I hate all the hyperbole about well you can just use X/Y to do A/B! Axis could have just used ostwind to counter the UKF blobs.
3 Dec 2019, 19:50 PM
#28
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3960 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2019, 19:45 PMLatch


3v3 != 1v1's and I hate all the hyperbole about well you can just use X/Y to do A/B! Axis could have just used ostwind to counter the UKF blobs.

You are more likely to be fighting blobs in team games so I think their point stands.
3 Dec 2019, 20:00 PM
#29
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2369 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2019, 19:45 PMLatch
3v3 != 1v1's

Blobbing shouldn't be viable in 1v1s because it's detrimental to map control (except Polish hammer blobs on retreat paths). With all due respect, but if you regularly lose to blobs in 1v1s, it is probably a player skill issue and I'd advice you to watch casts or replays to learn to counter this and get better, or post replays and ask for advice.


jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2019, 19:45 PMLatch
and I hate all the hyperbole about well you can just use X/Y to do A/B!

That is literally how the game works. A/B is countered by X/Y. If you fail to do so, it's not a balance issue, but a learn to play issue. Only particular, more extreme cases where counters are ineffective or very hard are considered balance issues that need to be solved with changes (though admittedly, the lines of which is which can be blurry). Infantry Sections were never meant to counter Obersoldaten, quite the contrary, so them losing to Obers is a non-issue in regards to balance. Don't try to fight an elite anti-infantry unit with infantry, but use vehicles or mines to counter Obersoldaten.


jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2019, 19:45 PMLatch
Axis could have just used ostwind to counter the UKF blobs.

I've already explained to you what the difference was. Volksgrenadiers and Grenadiers need upgrades to be anywhere near an effective blob, and Obersoldaten are very expensive elite infantry. These aren't really comparable to how incredibly strong 5 men Infantry Sections were from 5 minutes into the game without needing any weapon upgrades. Bolstered unupgraded Infantry Sections created a resource economy imbalance. Fully upgraded Volks/Grens/Obers much less so.
3 Dec 2019, 20:28 PM
#30
avatar of Latch

Posts: 637

Hyperbole


I'm talking about players opinions about how you just use X to counter Y, if the enemy is blobbing, just use an MG!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF51xws_BKc&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsIVrWo84OI&feature=youtu.be

Oh the enemy has build 2 leigs? Just cloak up to him with commandos and gammon bomb them! (Completely ignoring everything else that can happen in a level) THATS hyperbole.

You "explained" what the difference was, but that doesnt stop the fact that Ostwinds wouldnt get hurt by Tommie blobs, and if it was a blob of piat weilding infantry sections then, they hardly pose an AI threat, so you know, Just use oswtwinds the game is a game of X/Y!

Were MG's designed to be countered by obers? Because, as I have shown, they can be, from the front, very easily.

Who said I regularly lose to blobs? and as someone that mains 3v3 how can you state that it is detrimental to map control? One blob can wipe 2-3 squads easily if you dont retreat in time, have you ever faces 2x obers with LMGs in a blob? Try retreat from that and then tell me its detrimental to map control or "Expensive" negating the amount of MP bleed they will inflict on the enemy.

EDIT: woah, and use mines or vehicles to counter obers..... So luck or a fuel investment that will get countered by a mine or a vehicle or a rak or a faust or a shreck or in some cases, the Schwer to counter an infantry squad, non doc at that, and you see no issue with that? But tommy blobs supposedly countering them, was an issue? OK
3 Dec 2019, 21:50 PM
#31
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2369 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2019, 20:28 PMLatch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF51xws_BKc&feature=youtu.be

Were MG's designed to be countered by obers? Because, as I have shown, they can be, from the front, very easily.


The first video literally shows the HMG winning against the Obers lol. Perhaps try to position your HMG behind cover if you don't want it getting killed frontally. Don't blame bad play on game balance. I'm done replying here since you clearly don't want to be helped and you seem to be here just to whine.
3 Dec 2019, 22:00 PM
#32
avatar of Latch

Posts: 637



The first video literally shows the HMG winning against the Obers lol. Perhaps try to position your HMG behind cover if you don't want it getting killed frontally. Don't blame bad play on game balance. I'm done replying here since you clearly don't want to be helped and you seem to be here just to whine.


But what must the Mg do now after facing that 1 squad? You got it, Retreat! That area is no longer covered by an MG After an engagement with 1 squad head on and a vet 3 MG might I add, the obers still have 2 vet levels to go.

Position or cover has nothing to do with what I just showed you, both squads were out of cover and 1 squad beat an MG head on, but please continue with the hyperbole about what should have been different, how the MG should have been in cover and the obers not because thats how all engagements go.
3 Dec 2019, 22:51 PM
#33
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3960 | Subs: 1

The counter to Obers has never been 1v1 with anything. You need to outnumber them or hit them with armour just like any elite infantry. I would love if mgs got a bonus when in green cover to make a dug in mg more effective but in the end Obers are end tier elite AI infantry. If it has legs it WILL NOT trade effectively with them. That's their point. Their entire purpose. Keep in mind that okw has expensive armour, Obers are there to pick up the slack if they can't afford to replace a tank soon enough but they have a VERY clear and exploitable weakness.
3 Dec 2019, 23:04 PM
#34
avatar of Latch

Posts: 637

The counter to Obers has never been 1v1 with anything. You need to outnumber them or hit them with armour just like any elite infantry. I would love if mgs got a bonus when in green cover to make a dug in mg more effective but in the end Obers are end tier elite AI infantry. If it has legs it WILL NOT trade effectively with them. That's their point. Their entire purpose. Keep in mind that okw has expensive armour, Obers are there to pick up the slack if they can't afford to replace a tank soon enough but they have a VERY clear and exploitable weakness.


Going 1v1 against most squads is fine, but not an MG frontally, that's not ballanced no matter how you try and swing it.
4 Dec 2019, 01:04 AM
#35
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3960 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2019, 23:04 PMLatch


Going 1v1 against most squads is fine, but not an MG frontally, that's not ballanced no matter how you try and swing it.

Obers are an odd duck. They are expensive and come much later than other infantry AND lack utility or AT. The trade off is that if it' has legs Obers will kill it. If you were arguing about falls I'd agree since they have camo and snares, but Obers... That's their only job.
4 Dec 2019, 07:54 AM
#36
avatar of Musti

Posts: 199


Obers are an odd duck. They are expensive and come much later than other infantry AND lack utility or AT. The trade off is that if it' has legs Obers will kill it. If you were arguing about falls I'd agree since they have camo and snares, but Obers... That's their only job.

Wait what? So all the butthurt about infantry killing MGs frontally that has been going on since forever
don't apply to Obers?
4 Dec 2019, 12:39 PM
#37
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1774 | Subs: 1

if you buff brits in any way the game will be broken and unfun again
4 Dec 2019, 12:52 PM
#38
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15216 | Subs: 7

if you buff brits in any way the game will be broken and unfun again

That opinion will have equal value when applied to any of the 5 factions(aka no value) without any argumentation.

Its like saying "there are top 10 players, therefore we can't have any fun in game until we get rid of them".
4 Dec 2019, 12:53 PM
#39
avatar of The Spycrab

Posts: 37

if you buff brits in any way the game will be broken and unfun again


So 1 faction should suffer entirely because it will make the game “unfun” i can name at least a dozen ways the game is not fun from every faction, there is always going to be stuff that makes the game unfun. If axis factions suffered as bad as the brits are right now I’d be saying the exact same thing. They need to be at least playable because its unfun that you cant play an entire faction which costs extra money on top of the game itself.
4 Dec 2019, 12:58 PM
#40
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1774 | Subs: 1



So 1 faction should suffer entirely because it will make the game “unfun” i can name at least a dozen ways the game is not fun from every faction, there is always going to be stuff that makes the game unfun. If axis factions suffered as bad as the brits are right now I’d be saying the exact same thing. They need to be at least playable because its unfun that you cant play an entire faction which costs extra money on top of the game itself.
they are playable. all their strenghts are still in gamem
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