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Just to reinforce my point:
What does Battlegroup HQ lack that Mechanized can offer? Objectively, Battlegroup has quite some advantages, the biggest one being medics, a FRP on bigger maps (usually more useful in larger modes as well) and some fuel savings over T2. These are very good traits. OKWs design could potentially allow for a T1 infantry focused gameplay, or a T2 vehicle focused gameplay. At the moment few people play T1, although none of the units in T2 are OP by themselves. What does this tell us? Thr conclusion is that the gpod traits of T1 cannot compensate for the overall shitty units it offers |
Not really, OKW have to choose between light vehicles and a very expensive healing and have to pay for truck that are better of being build in base. Most of the other faction have better tech trees that are more flexible. Actually OKW tech tree need to be improved.
What does this have to do with the overall timing of OKW? Luchs/Puma come at a useful and balanced point in the game, the P4 comes also at a useful point in the game. OKWs tech tree could use a rework, but the overall costs and timings should stay the same. The medics are not expensive and can be viably bought after a couple of minutes when usually every other faction techs to medics as well. |
I don't actually think the Flak is bad for it's timing at the moment but I feel like Battlegroup HQ is too expensive in general at the moment. If you think about it, it's 70 mp 15 fuel for the truck, 200 mp and 25 fuel to drop Battlegroup and 100 mp 15 fuel for medics. That ends up being 370 mp and 55 fuel just for healing access. This delays the Flak Halftrack heavily in my opinion, if the Battlegroup was lets say 150 manpower instead of 200 and the truck came with the medic upgrade you could save 15 fuel and 150 manpower which could help you tech quicker getting Obers out faster or being able to rush the Flak HT without having to skip out on healing. The Flak comes to late if you get medics first and the rest of the truck doesn't really help with the Retreat Point being overpriced. ISG's are nice but when you could have the Luchs and the Puma you would take them instead. Mech at the moment is essentially 270 mp 60 fuel, meaning you spend 5 more fuel but you save 100 manpower which is more noticeable. Mech is generally cheaper and has better units resulting in more people going for it, the truck only becomes more expensive when you spend 100 mp 15 fuel on the mechanics but people don't tend to do this in the early game since repairs aren't as big of an issue.
You could just not buy medics right away and get the Flak first while surviving on medcrates as it is the current meta. I think OKWs fuel and tech timing is pretty balanced compared to other factions, so I would not give them an upgrade for free unless you you put the cost somewhere else.
In my eyes the Battlegroup is a good building. Can give you medics, front line reinforcement and you tech up faster than with T2.
For me it clearly comes down to the units and the current LV meta. Let's face it, probably no other building of any faction has such useful units as OKW T2. Luchs, Puma, StuKa - they're all great. But they're not really unbalanced, all prices and timings are alright. So how does Battlegroup compete woth that? IR halftrack - only useful in larger team games. ISG - decent, but OKW rarely needs early game AI power, especially not against in general more mobile Allied infantry. And the Flak - that's being discussed here, in my eyes it does not add enough value to the building.so what's there to do?
Buff by price reduction - could mess up overall OW timings and game balance.
Put Luchs or Puma into Battlegroup - would be an overall berf to OKW
Buff Battlegroup units to give them more shock value (ISG is standardized, IR halftrack has no combat power, so Flak remains) |
I like this option, but I'd also like to see its armor increased by just a tiny bit. Right now, the USF HT has 15/10 armor, while the FlakHT is at 11/5.5; it's a tiny numerical difference, but it works out to 50%/80% less damage taken from infantry. Increasing the HP to 360 and the armor to 15/10 would mean a stock FlakHT has the same defensive value as a vet 3 USF AA-HT, but it still misses out on firing on the move, and it of course has much less pen. Those downsides, combined with a +5-10 fuel increase would (imo) make it quite a viable unit, while not making it too strong (or just out-classing the AAHT).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but comparing the armor values of these 2 vehicles is misleading. The USF half track drives in reverse into battle, so the effective armor value is 10 while the OKW half track has an armor of 11. Now this does not factor in the sides with are also hit and as far as I know count as rear armor, but still this should be kept in mind
Do you also mean giving it both more armor AND more HP? If at all, I'd rather see the armor slightly decreased so that the half track still survives 2 long range ATG shots, but can be taken down by small arms fire when combat gets too close. Overall this should be a buff for the vehicle. |
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Currently, the OKW Flak Half track is quite weak compared to other light vehicles. The not viable light vehicle makes OKW at the moment pretty linear to tech since T1 is basically useless and everyone builds T2 for Puma/Luchs, while T1 is teched sometime later for the medics and the option of the Königstiger.
The Half track especially sucks against USF, because their AT gun fires so quickly that you often don't get your vehicle out if you don't pull it back in a split second. It performs decently against SOV T1 builds, due to SOV lack of AT. Against UKF it is also usually not worth it due to the AEC and also a good AT gun.
Now, enough problem description. The key design of the unit is to hold ground, not take it. Volks shall push, the Flak drives up, sets up and then supports against the counter push. That design is interesting and I would like to keep that. What I feel that drags the unit down the most is that it dies in 2 shots, which makes is a throw away unit after the first medium comes out, because the medium will always get two shots off so you must pray to RNGsus to make one shot miss. Also it usually loses to other light vehicles due to immobility (which enables vehicles to shoot the rear armor) and generally low DPS.
I want to make three suggestions to discuss that could potentially fix the issues. Not all of them are meant to be implemented at once, only one might already be enough:
1. Give it 40 HP more. Does the trick, now it dies in three shots, or two shots and a snare. Or maybe also in two shots and a bit of small arms fire. Maybe this needs to be compensated with 5 FU cost more, slightly longer set up or pack up times etc, but it would greatly add to the survivability and make it more usable once the mid game begins.
2. Give it more penetration. Would allow to defend better against T70, and maybe also the AEC and Stuart. Not to the point where it beats them, but where it can deal some damage when supported properly. Remember, the half track can't run away anyway unless there is enough infantry near it to snare the attacker.
3. The most intricate one: Give it a fortified mode. Either a toggle or OKW Volks/Sturms can set it into a fortified mode like OST has it in doctrines. But instead of giving it more range, it could just get a damage reduction like the KV1. |
just sop u knwo the differnce between all the medium is minimal
---Tank stats---
/shortened*Hannibal
Both P4s are good due to their armor, that's what makes them win engagements with other mediums. Also Blitzkrieg is a very decent utility, way better than ram and I use it also more often then the smoke shell.
But to adress OPs post:
I think the T34/76 could do with some rework. It feels like a weird mix of light and medium tank that does not really propel you into the midgame. But the Sherman is an all-round good tank that performs okay without and great with micro. The Cromwell is a bit quirky against infantry but it does its job.
Of all mediums, the T34/76 is the most "unique" one in the sense that it is way cheaper and overall AT performance is the worst of them. You either compensate that by amassing them in smaller modes. In larger modes its usually better to go SU85 + Katyusha. The rest is pretty much standardized and performs according to their cost. |
You can't get supply before first 5 or 10 minutes of the game.
It's 5 min.
it also happens after a sync error
As far as I know that's not quite true. You get them, but not instantly. You will get rewarded for the game once the player that desynced connects to Relic servers again or something like that.
To OP: If this is the case, I unfortunately have no fix for you. Are you sure that you don't get them "silently" like in a desync situation? But I assume you wouuld have noticed that.
Good luck that it fixes itself soon. |
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The ability is fine. It just looks stupid when your tank is getting shot at with apparently no visual feedback as to why it is unable to defend itself. No buff needed, it's the best allround ability of these three.
OKW's one is more situational but can really save you a tank when in dire need.
I personally feld that UKF was slightly overprized since the smoke is often not needed anyway, but also that ability is quite useful when you need your tanks back quickly. They often come with HP heavy tanks like Churchills. |
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Molotov fits the theme of cheap conscripts that have to fill in where they are needed. However there's not much reason beside that to give them molotovs, especially since SOV can upgrade flamethrowers.
Early anti garrison can cause problems especially for OST that relies on MGs in the early game, but for conscripts there is currently an okayish kind of balance by having the long throw animation that negates an otherwise good ability.
But to make it short: Nice idea from OP, but I think it's too complicated with quite a few potential drawbacks |
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