Profile of Hannibal

Scaling doesn't necessarily mean vet. Weapon upgrade (for that sweet dps concentration and dps boost through munition), nades, snares, AT, resilient to late game wipes, utility, cover creation, reinforce cost, reinforce speed, etc.

Penals are a great option early mid and fall flat on the later stages of the game, specially if you have to rebuild them. Conscripts are the completely opposite of them. PF are basically a middle ground between those two.

I tested Penal fighting power todaz vs Grens and also a bit vs Volks.
They do very well, win most fights with ~3 models (sometimes 2, a little less often also 4) both in and out of cover at least when at range 20+ (have not tested below that except for running Volks into Penals from range 30). I tested vanilla Penals vs Volks/Gren vet 0, vet 3 and with Volks/Gren weapon upgrade at vet 0 and 3.

I think Penal scaling criticism might come down partially to over exaggeration. The other part are true factors like lack in utility/reinforce cost etc.

Don't call people stupid that exasily - it's not nice. I play allies a lot and know well what I'm writing about. I only reply to anti ost threads because most players love to boost allies and pretend not to see that. Ost players just don't defend themselves and allies will soon turn ostheer into a faction that nobody will play with in 1v1.

I always pay attention to never direct something like this towards the person itself and I criticized the argument. I also rarely use words like "stupid", but in this case the argument is pretty much objectively wrong and unreasonable. Everyone says wrong stuff from time to time, but nevertheless one should think critically about his own argument as well. If people don't do that, they must be called out on that.

I also differ from your mindset that the community is generally divided into Axis and Allies that blindly want to buff only their faction without second thought. OST got decent and well needed buffs in the last patches which where supported by the community. The faction is in a very good spot right now, both balance wise and considering the amount of different play styles that are viable. There are always some units that could need slight changes, but all in all the OST rooster has now become one of the best ones in the sense that every stock unit is usable and most of them in all game modes. We currently can't say that about any other faction in the game.

Dps is important and conveniently overlook over suppression. Dropping models, reducing dps against it, forcing retreat earlier, draining mp. Imo is more game changing than that few seconds of suppression.

Suppressing the squad also reduces DPS against the MG and prevents it from being flanked.
For a long time, the Maxim had decent DPS and very good pack up/set down times, but a small arc and shit suppression. It basically fulfills your criteria for a good MG. However, it was and despite a few buffs still is considered the worst MG in the game. Especially since Volksgrenadiere could just frontally assault it and throw an incendiary nade. How does that fit into your model of good performance?

I notice you always throw an extra engineer unit, can you tell me the reasons why?

Also thanks for the help and advive!

Basically what achpawel said.

Engineers are super cheap, give you capping power and with a flame thrower they become your CQC unit and have decent damage output as long as you don't run them into enemy squads over open fields. Also tactically you should get used to mine placing, and the second engineer will make it way easier. And you can always go full cheeky-breeky and build a demo charge (90% of the players never turn the camera. So turn the camera and build the demo on the hidden side of the building. Big bushes work very well, too).
You can build a second engineer right from the start when you play with Penals. Send the first engineer capping right away, build T1 with the second engineer and you should hit 300 MP when the building is finished. It's a viable build, and allows you to have squads out on the field quickly to compensate for expensive Penals. With this build an early flamer is almost mandatory. However you can just build 1-3 Penals and go for the second engineer any time you want, that's also good.

The Conscript merge function is very good with flamer engineers and requires a bit of micro. But as long as you don't run into an MG, you basically have a 10 men flamer squad.

The second engineer can later be upgraded with a sweeper when the LV phase begins and is very important to push up with your T70 to keep it safe from mines. Two engineers allow you to repair your T70 and all subsequent vehicles faster. And you need two engineers anyway for the late game. If you're lucky you can vet at least one of them to vet2. Keep that one alive at all costs since it repairs way faster. Don't sacrifice that squad and use it for back line mine placing only.

I usually go for one engineer with flame thrower and one sweeper. However with the new patch I often found myself building two sweepers for the improved repairs.

Now that said and counting all the advantages of a second engineer: It's also perfectly fine to build it only in the late game. One big disadvantage is that you invest 170 MP into what is probably the worst fighting squad in the game. If they get into a fight, park them behind cover and make them hold out until a real fighting squad arrives. But nevertheless they're decent to make MGs move if they flank them. Most Axis players will move the MG even it gets flanked by just an engineer which could be fought off by other units.

I always did penals, but how can you cope with less map presence and high replenishment costs?

Would 3 penals, and 2 cons work well?

ANd with the penals shall i make the AT or keep them on fighting infantry and call in guards?

For SOV I would recommend not going more than 3 Penals for most games since they trade okayish at best in the mid to late game.
The early builds that work for me are (I'm not high ranked though)
- 3 Penals, 1-2 engineers and wait for 1 elite infantry (Guards, Shocks)
- 2 Penals, 1-2 engineers and sniper. Depending on commander choice later elite infantry or another Penal.
- 2 Penals, 2 engineers stall into usually 2 elite infantry (requires some skill to pull off and survive)

Usually one of the Penals is usually upgraded with PTRS when light vehicles arrive unless you get Guards. Mines will other wholes in your anti vehicle defense.

Non Penal builds are often 4xConscripts plus 1-2 support weapon and 1 elite infantry. If you only build 3 Cons you can usually afford one elite infantry more or safely get a second support weapon.

Rule of thumb for all modes: Get ~6 mobile units that are able to cap stuff. Get a second engineer in the late game for repairs.

You see that SOV often relies on their doctrinal infantry. Games without them are possible, but then you have to put pressure on the enemy infantry in some other way, often by artillery. The doctrinal infantry is what allows you to push the Axis players and make them move because they out-compete most Axis infantry at their respective optimum range.

After that SOV often rushes into their T70 which is excellent for the price and timing. If you're on the backfoot, waiting for a SU85 is often the best thing to do in team games.
Kajushas are also great, but I would get 2 other tanks first, usually a T34 and an SU85.


Note that all of these are rule of thumb and some games obviously require you to deviate from that.