Maybe so, but it's pretty unrealistic given that any axis infantry it might encounter will either have a Shrek or a snare with small exceptions.
Yes it pretty rare to see SU-76 crushing infantry but claiming that it will "never" happen and reason being given because of "SU-76's mobility" implying is has bad mobility is simply misleading.
Su-76 has actually around 136% more rotation than stug-G.
Again I have actually seen SU-76 being used to crush PGs in a high level game. |
Why not just require Battlegroup to be set up before you can get mechanized?
That way you don’t have the problem of mechanized lacking healing and Battlegroup lacking late game repairs, and the problem of puma shutting down all allied LVs before they even come out if you get Puma first and Luchs slaughtering all the allied infantry before allies can get a LV out of you go Luchs first
That would make OKW linear.
Given that the MOD team seem determined to make all faction able to have access to all stock units (USF redesign, Ostheer and Soviet tech discounts) it seem inevitable that OKW will follow the same trend and be redesigned to allow access to all Tracks. |
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3 years. Multiple tournaments. 1v1, 2v2 and the occasional organized 4v4 games. Several pro players who are still here and some who are gone. Veteran vcoh player and the ocassional high ranked developer. Yeah, no one understand the unit.
It's not Dhska, it's hard to incorporate into a building cause you need late game tank commander to be meta, secret OP. It was meme tier Hetzer unit level.
The game is completely different after 3 years of patches. Once more simply test them in my MOD.
And that also applies to many other units, with the difference that Penals are not as great into the mid-late game, which on teamgames, arrives way faster because people can actually skip tiers and key units.
That makes the unit badly design which is my original point.
I see you purposely skip the fact that the initial mp, building time and tier investment are what keeps the unit in check.
Asking for same treatment on PF as Penals, is asking for the same drawbacks the unit have.
I did not skip any facts because there are no fact, you asked my a hypothetical question and my answer is that I would use PF if they come after SWS being built (which is later than T1) costed 300 had the same built time as Penal and come with g43.
I can make a MOD is you would like to test actually test them.
Again my point that MOD team has decided to make PF an alternative mainline infatry and they choose weapon upgrade to achieved it. They should apply the same design to Penal who are an alternative mainline infatry.
The tempo IS the building time, the mp disposal and the map control.
I'm not opposed to mid-game further investment so they have to pay to unlock both satchel/PTRS. Reducing the difference in mp effectiveness with Conscript/maxim builds while slowing them down towards the T70.
Glad that we agree.
USF, OKW says hi. Then UKF to join the mix. All factions design around spamming infantry to overpower the lack of early options in support weapons. WFA set the tempo to be faster, once they managed to slow it down just a couple of months before their release.
That was problematic only at release and was quickly fixed. Any problem had do with faction design and cheesy and not early small arm balance which has change little. Basic stat of Grens, Riflemen VG has seen little changes. |
It can as in the stat is allowing it, but it'll never do it, because its mobility doesn't.
SU-76 mobility is quite high
Speed: 6.3
Accel: 2.3
Rotate: 30
Actually I have seen it being done in top level game. |
I guess Grenadier vs Conscript spam meta were consider weapon teams at that time. You are underestimating the time frame Penals remain useless. 6 months after release they were a meme unit to recrew weapons with and it took 3 years to finally rework them. We've seen maxim spam, conscript spam (with and without PPSH), double clowncar, double sniper, 3 conscript into maxims, Guard spam, double Shock, cheesy wiping Partisans, etc.
EVERY SINGLE UNIT, on BOTH OH and SU, saw use with the exception of Penals and Su76 before their reworks. 3 years. You can't blame game state to a failed concept. It's like developers blaming players for not liking their vision design and not wanting to pay and play their games.
Imo you are simply underestimating the flamer Penals, you can test them in my MOD and you probably see how powerful they actually are. Combat wise they are more powerful than Assault engineers while costing less manpower.
The fact that they did not see much use mean little about their state. Many units did not see use and they anything but UP.
Penals when they were 360mp saw no use because you don't have the mp to build them, on top of having to waste resources in both, the cost of T1 and time you waste with your CE.
Penals at 270mp didn't see use, because you would rather have your CE be in the front and build 2 conscripts from the get go.
360 mp Penal are ancient history an irrelevant. Flamer Penal where not great before the flamer buff and people probably did not understand their potential after the flamer buff.
Penals will never be a thing, if they are made equally to PFs, Volks or slightly stronger Conscripts.
It's not hard to grasp the concept that SU starts with less man power and have to spend time and resources to build their tiers if they don't want to open up with conscripts.
I doubt there many ways to make penal work without being balanced around being OP but outnumbered. Which does not really balance them out modes above 1vs1.
Would you build PF if you had to build a SwS truck first before been able to deploy them? That's why the concept is doomed from the start.
If they come at penal power level and required truck being built and not set up, easily.
For PF to be equal to Penals, the moment you pick the commander you lose 80mp. SP are bound to the base till the SwS is built. And then you spend an extra 60mp to unlock PF. They now arrive as 6 man PF with 6 G43 which just mimic SVTs.
Again the point is not for PF to come with G43 but for penals to have the same tempo as other infatry and to have to buy the extra firepower.
That ended the moment main line infantry cost stopped being 240mp.
Not really. That ended when for no good reason powerful infatry become easier and earlier accessible and the trends continues. |
I'd compare them to Tommies, against which they are adequately more powerful and more expensive.
feel free to compare what you like and if you do not like the penal ober comparison take it up with sanders who made it.
Obers with lmg upgrade are simply UP.
That's true, but we can't ignore their history of balancing and why they ended up where they are now.
They were supposed to be cost efficient -ONLY- once upgraded.
LMG became an upgrade to allow for stock price manpower to go down, it was basically shifting the cost from manpower to muni.
And I did not say that was a problem in anyway. On the contrary I said that Penal should start at lower power level and have weapon upgrade similar to Obers and G43 PF.
PLS do not quote me if what you are going to reply is irrelevant to my post you have quote from. |
That wouldn't work.
...
The game was in completely different state, the built at the time included heavy use of weapons teams , including maxim spam while currently people use brute infatry force.
Penal where not being used because maxim spam was allot easier.
If we accept that PF design is the correct one for alternative mainline infatry, the same rules should apply to Penals as alternative infatry. That start weak and upgrade. Else PF should be able to upgrade with g43 from start with no MU cost.
The point I making is that if expensive lethal infatry are available early the game become about first engagements. If one can stop that strong infatry (SP/Penal or what ever else) he win, if that infatry win first engagements the game start to snowballs with little chance of a comeback.
The pace of the game should be set by the stock mainline infatry. |
Its solve the problem! USF also just like OKW will can use early artillery. Why should only OKW have such an opportunity? Although Scott is definitely not such a sudden threat, like a walking stuka.
Then lets move katiousha and wefer at t3 also. Scott is currently op in live and that is why it get nerfed making available earlier will only make the problem worse.
The problem is not that Scott come late but that stuka might come early in some modes. |
Even then, now you have a worse halftrack that cant be turned into AA. it scales worse and you have a fuel cost bundled to your elite infatry. In order for the bundle to work it needs somethin worth getting and if need be replacing. Otherwise you have 1 off infantry with a fuel cost meaning they will be ignored imstead
The M3 would be unique to the commander and would allow the bundle to be cheaper and arrive earlier. Having a stock unit appearing in doctrinal bundle makes little sense unless it allow you building skipping and that is not the case here.
Thompson Guards are quite strong and their availability should be limited. The other option is stop coming in a bundle and become CP3. |
Now that Hetzer is also locked to Panzer Authorization the truck setup could be lowered to 20-40 fuel. That could be a decent timing.
Ober's timing coming too early is not really as issues as long as they remain less cost efficient than penals. Imo it is the other infantry that should be delayed not ober that should come earlier.
Hezter and ostwind should not require the T4 building to exist.
Their timing could be fixed with CP.
Either all call in tanks should require both CP and tech or the double requirement should be limited to only to Super heavies. |
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