Is there a punishment for "base destroyers"? If there is evidence. It looks like they were banned.
Both soviet combat engineers and pioneers have extra view range. And that was given so that they can be used in the field tactically i.e. spotting. If you can't counter mg spam then your a Newb thats just a fact.
It's a lie. Soviet combat engineers have sight - 35, Pioneers - 42.
I have already spoken about this. Having such a sight at the very beginning of the game is just a broken thing. Ostheer can take your fuel at the very beginning of the game without any problems in 3x3 or 4x4 mode. Enemy can know in advance where your Vickers or Maxim is located and bypass it or fire at it with mg42 from the fog of war. I suggested solving this broken thing by simply moving the 42 sight to vet1.
This may not be a problem in 1v1, but it's a big problem in 3v3 and 4v4. (And 4v4 is the balance team's favorite mode, just check the sturmpanther and sender profiles)
But there is no hope for these corrections, because the Ostheer is the favorite faction of the sturmpanter. As long as Relic keeps these people as a balance team, the game will have such strange things.
You're completely missing the point about cons btw. He's talking about soviet players using oorah to flank the MG, which pios prevent by sighting for the MG.
Generally the allies outnumber the axis players with mainline infantry early on. So for a bit it's an Axis MG + pioneer fighting an engineer and a con (for example). If axis loses that engagement and has to retreat the MG, they're going to constantly be on the back foot after it because of the sheer imbalance of infantry. (pio + gren VS. con, con, engineer)
That's why Axis has to have an advantage in setting up the MG and spotting for it. Plus, as mentioned earlier, they've got 4 man squads that they's otherwise have to check for MGs with their face. And here's the thing about allies not having as much sight for their MGs: when you start getting fired at, you're too far into the arc to just run back out. Consider it a blessing if the Axis player only shoots at you from max range, you get to keep your unit on the field and plan a counterattack.
How can you compare "Oraah" for 15 muni, and a passive ability 42 sight range. This is a made up reason to justify a broken sight range. Relik gave mp40 to the pioneers, which means that they will quickly deal with cons that will approach mg42. (We can even test it.)
On the other hand, then why don't the Britы have anything like that, because there are assault grenadiers who also have a sprint. And they are much more dangerous than cons.
You are also very afraid of my topic, so you want to delete it, because I touched on a thing that you love very much. Shoot the mg42 from the fog of war into another mg, in the very first seconds of the game
This is the thing that is broken. Shift it to vet1.
Pioneers having such a large sight is not really a problem in most scenarios. Sure, on some maps it's a bigger deal than on others, but it's still fine. They are a close quarters unit meaning that they can only really defend the MG42, and not trade with anyone cover to cover. Sure, you could make the bonus sight a vet1 bonus, but then oorah would have to go to vet as well; probably the IS cover bonus would also have to be redistributed onto veterancy (nerf vet0, buff vet1 cover bonus)... too much hassle to balance it at this stage of the game.
"A map design issue"
Also it's more of a teamgame issue where one MG42 can lock down a VP and a fuel point (Across the rheine, west spawn-bottom). And only for brits and USF. Brits lack a good smoke dispenser and the USF mortar will only be a population strain later on (having sh** AOE). Going for the 81mm mortar as soviets is even encouraged in teamgames on such maps, so the pio/mg42 will be negated.
All in all, it's a map design issue at most. Not an "OP unit" issue
You know, I have experience in this forum. We've been through this. I once wrote on this forum that the US mortar is very bad, comparing it with the Oster mortar. That Rifleman AT grenades should be available after opening the captain or lieutenant. Then guys like you wrote that the USF didn't need it, and various bad results in tournaments are just bad map design that is inconvenient for the usf. And what happened next. The US mortar was made better, and the riflemans got AT grenades. So no, let's not talk about map designs unless you really believe what you're saying. Thx.
Yes this is exactly what I meant. Asymmetric balance. Are you going to also remove OORAH then? Because you will need to if you nerf the pios vision.
Personally I could care less about any of this. I am not against your argument. Just trying to put the conversation in perspective for everyone else reading.
Axis was aggressive early, Allies over came later. Just the general sense of the war. Not talking Germany vs Russia in a head to head illegal in 17 states unsanctioned grudge match.
You also want to confuse the meaning. Who will seriously compare the pioneers and cons. Maybe compare the pioneers with the commandos? Still no one can give a reasonable argument why they need it in the beginning. And you admitted that this allows the MG42 to shoot out of the fog of war in the first minute
of the game. I will not get tired of repeating this, because you guys are trying to distort the meaning of my message. This suppresses your mg for sure because the enemy knows where your mg is and you can't see it. The debut is of great importance, and this sight range in the first seconds of the fight is real broken. So this should be shifted to vet1.
Just for clarity...
The pio design is two fold:
* Asymmetrical balance
In WW2, Axis was very strong at the start of the war. Thus Sturms, Kubels, snipers, and pio sighted MGs.
In order for all factions to play differently, pios need vision to support the MG42. They give sight so it can be setup aggressively. Since they have good close range DPS they can then protect the MG when it gets flanked.
Soviets were late to the war and should be strong later in the game. Therefore as an EFA they do not need vision for maxims.
The constant "balancing" breaks the original ideas behind each faction. Which is what people complain about.
People complain about OP units until they get nerfed. Then other people complain about each faction playing the same
"They give sight so it can be setup aggressivel
" Did you mean firing from the fog of war
at the very beginning of the battle, when you can't even see the mg42?
"Our aim is to encourage positional play
and combined arms, which the Wehrmacht faction tends to reply on more than any other faction"
It turns out that they have the best positional play, and the ability to aggressively push with mg42 at the beginning? That is the broken thing. And no one asks to remove this, let this Jaeger sight range just shift to vet1.
And references to real WW2 do not work at all, otherwise you will open a pandora's box. The Germans have always been stronger than the Soviets, if you know even a little about history.
Our aim is to encourage positional play and combined arms, which the Wehrmacht faction tends to reply on more than any other faction. With an increase in sight (albeit still lower than pathfinders) we are allowing Pioneers to help spot for their HMGs and other support teams.
Sight increased from 35 to 42"
It is by design.
Actually Relic was going to give the extra sight to grenadiers and proposed pioneers instead...
So no one says to remove this. Just shift it to vet 1. Pioneers will still have this bonus. There's no reason to have it so early to shoot out of the fog of war with the mg42 in the first contact.
This is a broken thing. And this needs to be fixed.
Ok I will gladly get serious with you. Pioneers, as a unit, is a pretty useless one. It's not squishy, and if you don't upgrade with Flamer it's combat useless.
Its only upsides are in support roles: laying mines, barbed wire and seeing further than purely combat units in order to assist with target marking. That's a good thing, and it ties perfectly to pioneers design philosophy.
I think it needs no change whatsoever. Those kind of topics are really cringe imho, since you are literally picking and examining mechanisms that have been in place for almost a decade.
Well, i see you have a wild fear that broken things in your favorite faction will be fixed. The arguments are absolutely trash. There is no reason why the pioneers with the mp40 have such high sight range, unless the are helping the MG42 shoot out of the fog of war in the first minute of the game.
. Things have been around for 10 years and they've been fixed, so that's fine.
Any engineers have the same philosophy, laying mines, barbed wire but. But osther pios also have jager sight bonus.
Nothing will happen, don't worry. Let's just shift the sight range 42 to 1 vet.
You must be new.
Wait till he finds out about Path spamming, Kubelwagens and the all important sniper that exist in the game Company of Heroes 2.
You seem to want to confuse this thread. I advise you to read again what I wrote.