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Thread: Jagdpanzer IV Refit16 Oct 2019, 17:35 PM Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 16:52 PMSander93 I personally think the Jagdpanzer IV is fine, it's a damn good unit with great veterancy. ... vet bonus: (if I have not missed anything) Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) 1) Unlocks the 'Cautious Movement' ability 2) +25% HP +20% accuracy 3) +20% rotation speed, +20% speed, -10% reload 4) -15% reload, +15% accuracy 5) For first shot fired out of camouflage x125% damage & x125% accuracy & x125% penetration for comparison reason: SU-85 Medium Tank Destroyer Unlocks the 'Tracking' ability +30% penetration, +30% accuracy -20% reload, +20% rotation speed, +20% speed, +20% ac/de-celeration M36 'Jackson' Tank Destroyer Unlocks the 'HVAP' ability +30% accuracy, -20% reload -15% reload, +30% penetration Sherman Vc 'Firefly' acceleration + 15% -25% reload, Weapon rotation+ 35% Accuracy +30%, +40 Damage So imo a vet 3 JP 4 has inferior bonus to a vet 3 SU-85 to M36 I would even go so far to say even to FF. (edited) In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Jagdpanzer IV Refit16 Oct 2019, 16:38 PM Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 16:28 PMLago Its gun is superior to Allied TDs against anything with less armour than a Churchill. Survivability is a good point though. Maybe it'd be worth making the sidegrade cost 100 MP 40 FU instead. That would make the JP4 cost (400/135 and 15 pop) 500/175 and I doubt it would be worth it. Keep in mind that the cost for the dozer upgrade is 50/20 In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Jagdpanzer IV Refit16 Oct 2019, 16:27 PM JP4 has a number of issues: High price High pop Low penetration high frontal armor low rear Low rotation speed problematic vet bonuses One first has to decide what the role of this unit is: If it a counter to mediums it need lower cost and pop If it is a counter to enemy 60 Tds it needs lower cost pop If it a counter to enemy heavies/super heavies it need more penetration In any way it need a veterancy overhaul. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Wehr weak penetration16 Oct 2019, 11:35 AM Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 11:33 AMSkysTheLimit And the exact same it true for panther, axis heavies, and super heavies against allied mediums Ok at this point you are simply arguing for arguing. I have repeatedly point out to you that allied TDs are more cost efficient than the Panther Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 11:33 AMSkysTheLimit Yeah and allies need TDs more than axis do... You have succeeded in pointing out that the factions are not identical No the do not. They simply have better ones. And that is bad designed since half the roster is not needed. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Wehr weak penetration16 Oct 2019, 11:31 AM Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 11:23 AMSkysTheLimit And a p4 is not a premium, heavy, or super heavy. Yet you still compare them... I did not compare the PzIV with heavies premium or super heavies. I simply pointed out that they outclass the PzIV making an investment that is the one of least cost efficient. Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 11:23 AMSkysTheLimit Bullshit, soviets need t70. USF needs Stuart or FlakHT, and Brits usually need AEC. Would love to see you winning competitive match without building any vehicle until TDs As wish I will rephrase, Ostheer need mediums tank to attack more than allies do. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Wehr weak penetration16 Oct 2019, 10:55 AM Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 04:59 AMSkysTheLimit You didnt stop at premiums, you said heavies and super heavies make p4 obselete. Check that cost difference, thats a lot more extreme than panther vs medium The panther is absolutely relevant, its literally one of the things the thread is about. You can say its a different type of unit, but it still outclasses allied mediums. Super heavies are a different type of unit too... Again Panther is neither a premium nor a heavy nor a Super heavy it is a TD. Any comparison of the Panther has to be with FF/SU-85/M-36. All 3 of them are more cost efficient counter to meduims than Panther is. Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 04:59 AMSkysTheLimit Bottom line is the same is true for the stock allied mediums. The window for all medium tanks became shorter with super heavy change, this is not just ostheer Yes that is true difference here is that Ostheer need vehicles to attack in mid game and allies do not. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Wehr weak penetration16 Oct 2019, 10:49 AM Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 05:48 AMSuperHansFan Panther is expensive and sucks against massed ATG wall? Who would have thought. It's a good thing it comes in a tier with rocket arty then isn't it? Something Brits can't say the same for comet. Panther is fine and so is P4. Panther and Comet have different roles. One is a TD the other is main battle tank. Comet actually has tools to attack ATGs like war speed/grenades or WP shells In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Wehr weak penetration16 Oct 2019, 04:44 AM Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 04:36 AMMr. Someguy Except the gap between a Panzer IV and a T-34-85 is much smaller than the gap between a Sherman and Panther. Heck, I think the the gap between the T-34-85 and Panther might be larger than the one between the Panzer IV and the T-34-85, after all the Panzer IV will consistently penetrate the T-34-85. Now add in an OKW Panzer IV and I think you're on about equal footing with a T-34-85, as the OKW Panzer IV's higher armor (234) will protect it more than the T-34-85's normal armor (160). And you still comparing a main battle tank like the T-34/85 with a TD the Panther. As for T-34/85 vs Panzer H, T-34/85 with a cost of 380/130 is more cost efficient than the PzIV H at 380/140 since the extra HP are superior to the extra armor. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Wehr weak penetration16 Oct 2019, 03:07 AM Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 01:24 AMSkysTheLimit Didn't miss your point at all. You said allied doctrinal tanks that were MUCH more expensive made p4 obselete (premiums, heavies, super heavies). I'm pointing out that both axis factions have stock tanks capable of doing the same Why are you pointing out that the panther costs more and takes longer to tech to when you're comparing ost p4 performance to premiums, heavies, and super heavies? The same applies Now check the cost difference between a T-34/85 with a PzIV and a Sherman with a Panther. Actually if one's opponent is spamming allied mediums making Panther is not the best response, one would probably do better making stugs or PzIVs. And you are still missing the point, Panther is quite irrelevant to the comparison since it is a TD hybrid and not a tank. If you want to compare Panther with something you need to compare it with FF/SU-85/M36. These TDs are allot more cost efficient than Panther vs mediums since they can hit and penetrate PzIV with a chance close to 100% even from range 60, while costing less to built, to tech and pop. Bottom line is that PzIV is not a very good investment because it has a high cost for the window of opportunity it has. Which has become smaller with the changes to Super heavies. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Wehr weak penetration15 Oct 2019, 23:21 PM Jump back to quoted post15 Oct 2019, 22:24 PMSkysTheLimit How is this unique to Ost p4? Panther does the same thing to allied mediums, and its available stock to both axis factions 1) Ostheer panther has high tech and high cost 2) Panther has little AI and can be countered by ATGs or TDs or even swarmed by mediums 3) Panther has very low rear armor and can be penetrated by mediums even when vet 2 4) Allied mediums have extra utility like smoke rounds, ram, extended vision, HE rounds 5) Allied premium, heavies and super heavies can put fight vs a Panther (they might not be to 1v1 but they can damage it and fight when supported) 6) As I have pointed allies have little reason to built medium since they can do with up-gunned infatry and TDs 7) You missed my point the part you quoted I mentioned "allied premium, heavies and super heavier appear" Panther is not any of those vehicles. PzIV H for instance that is premium for Ostheer does not make allied mediums obsolete. In: COH2 Balance