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russian armor

Easy USF fix

30 Sep 2019, 14:08 PM
#21
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1538

3 rifles is still the way to go before tech tho. I would suggest to reduce the cost of both lt and cpt to 200mp 30fu and the reesearch time from 70 to 40 sec. Then add the extra time and fuel cost to the platoon and company post upgrade (from 20fu and 20 sec to 25 fu and 50-60 sec).


Wtf that would make LT come faster and the LVs come at the same time as now. And no you go 2 RM LT RM M20
30 Sep 2019, 14:14 PM
#22
avatar of PanzerFutz

Posts: 95

- Remove bazooka from M20 crew.
- LT and Captain are made into 4 men squads. Can reinforce to 5 once Major comes around.
- Double the build time of the LV upgrade for LT to unlock M20&Stuart, as well as the Captain’s to unlock Pack&AAHT.


I think this is the way to go but, I would tie the reinforcement of the officer squads to their own tech-unlocking upgrades. Waiting for the Major would take too long.

I also think a 50% increase of the upgrade build times would be sufficient. Again, a 100% increase would take too long.
30 Sep 2019, 14:16 PM
#23
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 816

I think the goal needs to be to add some risk to the m20 build. It's very cheap and can beat a 222 or infinitely escape it with smoke, decrew and bazooka. Vs OKW it comes very early to push off infantry and the fast luchs can lose to a subsequent stuart. OKW needs the puma, but if they get pushed off the map from the m20 they will be far behind.

I would advocate to do probably one or two of the following
1. Increase m20 fuel cost to 25 or even 30, so early fights impact timing more
Reason: It's clearly worth more than 20 fuel once it upgrades skirts especially with skilled players using it. You are not even usually waiting for fuel in a 3 rifle LT build. The stuart comes quickly after b/c the fuel cost is so low.
Additionally rebuilding it or getting 2 for 40 fuel is not so hard and does not delay other light vehicles significantly. I think reducing the skirts cost could be a fair way to adjust for more fuel cost
2. remove bazooka to improve LV counterplay
3. Increase build time to reduce the resource advantage and map control gained from rushing it.
Edit:
4. Increase time to upgrade skirts so the m20 cannot dive far when it first jumps on the field, reduces chance of a squadwipe.

Regarding the USF officer I think increasing the MP cost to 300 is fine. But Changing the LT teching to 30 fuel, reducing build time and backloading those costs on LV unlocks(same time and fuel cost to unlock LV) might offset any weakness in USF once this strategy is nerfed. So USF had less resources but more flexibility. A trade I think many players would prefer long term.

30 Sep 2019, 14:35 PM
#24
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 923

What if the armour skirts upgrade for the M20 was locked behind Major/2nd officer?
30 Sep 2019, 14:39 PM
#25
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

- Remove bazooka from M20 crew.
- LT and Captain are made into 4 men squads. Can reinforce to 5 once Major comes around.
- Double the build time of the LV upgrade for LT to unlock M20&Stuart, as well as the Captain’s to unlock Pack&AAHT.


» Removing the bazooka from the M20 is so straightforward I'm surprised it hasn't happened already. It gets floated every patch.


» I think the way to go with the Officers is to have them come in at a lower power level (however much weaker they need to be to blunt the power spike) and give them an upgrade, available immediately, that'll restore them to their old 5 man power level.

That way, you give the player a choice between a more expensive or less powerful officer.


» You could hypothetically remove 10 starting FU, then move 10 FU from the Officer to the halftech. That'd delay vehicles by 10 FU without messing up the Officer timing.
30 Sep 2019, 14:56 PM
#26
avatar of Le Vecteur

Posts: 9

3 rifles is still the way to go before tech tho. I would suggest to reduce the cost of both lt and cpt to 200mp 30fu and the reesearch time from 70 to 40 sec. Then add the extra time and fuel cost to the platoon and company post upgrade (from 20fu and 20 sec to 25 fu and 50-60 sec).


That's a better idea.
30 Sep 2019, 15:04 PM
#27
avatar of Riley

Posts: 129

L2P pboblem again :snfPeter:

If you want to make starting fuel 10, then we must give access to bars and grenades at no special cost, like OKW. OKW just need to call sWS for access flame grenades, after the build of the med HQ or TechHQ is available STG44. Do the same for the USF. And if you want to increase the price to 300 mp for LT or CPT, then add a machine gun in t0 or AT gun. Because the USF is forced to open both HQ in order to get a machine gun and AT gun.

And what about 2x2? 2x2 USF is the worst fraction, do not forget the facts and recent tournaments. (2vs2 masters cup)
30 Sep 2019, 15:13 PM
#28
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2019, 15:04 PMRiley
If you want to make starting fuel 10, then we must give access to bars and grenades at no special cost, like OKW.

(emphasis mine)

According to?
30 Sep 2019, 15:32 PM
#29
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 149

In 2v2 you build 3x RM before LT/CPT or you can forget about your fuel. You can't fight Spio + 2x or 3x Volks with just RET and 2x RM.
30 Sep 2019, 15:45 PM
#30
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6432 | Subs: 1

Both m20 and WC do not need range 45.
30 Sep 2019, 15:46 PM
#31
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4002

move capt and liut at the second unlock
30 Sep 2019, 15:47 PM
#32
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1538

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2019, 15:04 PMRiley
L2P pboblem again :snfPeter:

If you want to make starting fuel 10, then we must give access to bars and grenades at no special cost, like OKW. OKW just need to call sWS for access flame grenades, after the build of the med HQ or TechHQ is available STG44. Do the same for the USF. And if you want to increase the price to 300 mp for LT or CPT, then add a machine gun in t0 or AT gun. Because the USF is forced to open both HQ in order to get a machine gun and AT gun.

And what about 2x2? 2x2 USF is the worst fraction, do not forget the facts and recent tournaments. (2vs2 masters cup)


OKW tech = 25+45+120+3x15 -10 = 225
USF tech = 35+20+35+20+120 - 20= 210

And USF the worst faction? Are you fucking serious they are clearly the best Allied faction in 1v1 and 2v2 ATM.

30 Sep 2019, 16:02 PM
#33
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1312



Played tons of high level 2v2s since the patch, had 0 issues as OKW.

And sorry but I dont agree with these nerfs at all, you can ask the top tier 1v1 players and most of them say that the powerspike of free LT and especially the fast M20 is the biggest threat in 1v1 atm.... and not the riflemen.

As others previously mentioned there would be a lot options to nerf M20 without hammering it too hard.

- increase the build time a lot or
- increase manpower cost or
- add a munition cost to the unit as well (crew has a zook)

etc etc


The OP has no ranked games as any faction since before the patch, so one could legitimately question if he has had any problems as OKW either.

I do wish they would take out the powerspike for LT and CPT but either turning the tech into an unlock (without the LT but adjust fuel and MP to something like 50/20) or simply adjusting the cost to something like 300/25. I'd much prefer the unlock as I could have more build diversity.

The M20 could simply have it's timing changed. It's already a lot of resources for something that gets countered by almost any other light vehicle. Also, if they took the zook away from the crew and compensated by lowering the cost of the armor skirts, it would force players to use it more cautiously as they would have at most 1 zook from the LT around it in case of a 222.


30 Sep 2019, 16:09 PM
#34
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1279 | Subs: 2

OST still in Life Support.
30 Sep 2019, 16:58 PM
#35
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1538



The OP has no ranked games as any faction since before the patch, so one could legitimately question if he has had any problems as OKW either.

I do wish they would take out the powerspike for LT and CPT but either turning the tech into an unlock (without the LT but adjust fuel and MP to something like 50/20) or simply adjusting the cost to something like 300/25. I'd much prefer the unlock as I could have more build diversity.

The M20 could simply have it's timing changed. It's already a lot of resources for something that gets countered by almost any other light vehicle. Also, if they took the zook away from the crew and compensated by lowering the cost of the armor skirts, it would force players to use it more cautiously as they would have at most 1 zook from the LT around it in case of a 222.


Funny that you say that when you don't have a playercard in your profile.
30 Sep 2019, 17:00 PM
#36
avatar of Riley

Posts: 129



OKW tech = 25+45+120+3x15 -10 = 225
USF tech = 35+20+35+20+120 - 20= 210

And USF the worst faction? Are you fucking serious they are clearly the best Allied faction in 1v1 and 2v2 ATM.



Yes, im serious. 1x1 USF maybe good. But 2x2 USF have big trouble.

In the Masters Cup tournament, no one chose this “mega” faction for the allies in the final. You recall the result of tournaments when it is profitable for you, and when it is not profitable for you, you forget about it.

Again, the USF has special fuel and manpower costs. Also, medicine also costs fuel. Also the main infantry is more expensive. And it's not just the price. Volks have access to grains and stg44 earlier than Riflemans. They also have sandbags, which helps them to guard on equal terms with more expensive riflemans. Also they do not receive a bonus for the first vet, only the AT grenade, which the volk receive for the linear development of technology. All these factors must be taken into account; we cannot just make the nerf of the USF. If fuel is reduced, then positive changes are needed in other things.
30 Sep 2019, 17:19 PM
#37
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 345

OST still in Life Support.


:c
30 Sep 2019, 17:47 PM
#38
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 963 | Subs: 1

I think USF definitely needs some nerfs but I think a change to m20 build time would be almost necessary. It has a such a large window where its unopposed. Increased build time would help a lot.
30 Sep 2019, 18:05 PM
#39
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1538

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2019, 17:00 PMRiley


Yes, im serious. 1x1 USF maybe good. But 2x2 USF have big trouble.

In the Masters Cup tournament, no one chose this “mega” faction for the allies in the final. You recall the result of tournaments when it is profitable for you, and when it is not profitable for you, you forget about it.

Again, the USF has special fuel and manpower costs. Also, medicine also costs fuel. Also the main infantry is more expensive. And it's not just the price. Volks have access to grains and stg44 earlier than Riflemans. They also have sandbags, which helps them to guard on equal terms with more expensive riflemans. Also they do not receive a bonus for the first vet, only the AT grenade, which the volk receive for the linear development of technology. All these factors must be taken into account; we cannot just make the nerf of the USF. If fuel is reduced, then positive changes are needed in other things.


The 2v2 tourney wasn't played with current patch. I am not talking about USF being OP months or years ago. OKW heal costs fuel too. Many popular USF doctrines have Riflemen field defences (sandbags and mines), so this doesn't convince me either.

Not sure what mysterious "special fuel and manpower costs" USF has. If you are rushing a HE Sherman (probably best medium tank in COH2 if you consider price) you pay 55+120+110-20 (265) which is way less than the 25+15+120+15+140 (305) you would pay for a OKW Panzer 4. If you rush a Stuart you pay 55+70-20 (105) and Luchs is 60+60-10 (110) or Puma 60+70+10 (120). Why would USF complain about "fuel and manpower costs". OKW gets grenades and weapon upgrades for free but their tech is more expensive, USF has no advantage here.
30 Sep 2019, 18:38 PM
#40
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2609 | Subs: 1



The 2v2 tourney wasn't played with current patch. I am not talking about USF being OP months or years ago. OKW heal costs fuel too. Many popular USF doctrines have Riflemen field defences (sandbags and mines), so this doesn't convince me either.

Not sure what mysterious "special fuel and manpower costs" USF has. If you are rushing a HE Sherman (probably best medium tank in COH2 if you consider price) you pay 55+120+110-20 (265) which is way less than the 25+15+120+15+140 (305) you would pay for a OKW Panzer 4. If you rush a Stuart you pay 55+70-20 (105) and Luchs is 60+60-10 (110) or Puma 60+70+10 (120). Why would USF complain about "fuel and manpower costs". OKW gets grenades and weapon upgrades for free but their tech is more expensive, USF has no advantage here.


Maybe add the cost of the ambulance, BARs and grenade to make you comparison more relevant.
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