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September Balance Patch preview [SPBP] - general discussion

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15 Aug 2019, 20:03 PM
#121
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

Sander stop spreading misinformation. SwererHQ is not a free area denial tool. It has costs, for the sws and the upgrade. Those costs included the actual flak gun. 120 Fu to enable mediums and heavy tanks is too pricey compared to any other faction

Fuel and mp cost for OKW teching is in line with any other faction.
Flak doesn't require any additional investment to activate it, doesn't eat pop cap, doesn't have upkeep.
Its more free then USF officers.

Its attached to something that has its own cost, but that somethings cost, again, is in line with equivalents of all other factions that do not grant anything free that directly impacts on field presence depending on where you put it.
15 Aug 2019, 20:16 PM
#122
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3596 | Subs: 1



Furthermore, if you don't like the tied to base idea panzer authorization should not need to be repurchased as dangerous cloth has suggested. If USF or UKF lose their tech structure they can repair the entire thing for free, makes no sense for OKW to have to pay 135F just to build tanks again.


It takes 5 minutes to rebuild an USF tier.

So if it takes 5 full minutes to repair your schwerer where it stand and having it funcional only when you complete 100%, any damage taken enlarge the repair time, why not.
15 Aug 2019, 20:26 PM
#123
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 20:16 PMEsxile

It takes 5 minutes to rebuild an USF tier.

So if it takes 5 full minutes to repair your schwerer where it stand and having it funcional only when you complete 100%, any damage taken enlarge the repair time, why not.


Are you actually trying to justify a FREE repair vs a 135F repair?????
15 Aug 2019, 20:44 PM
#124
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3596 | Subs: 1



Are you actually trying to justify a FREE repair vs a 135F repair?????


No, I'm telling you that if you want a FREE repair, that's what you'll get.

- Repair where it stand and not rebuild wherever you want.
- 5 minutes to fully repair (but it can be reduce if you assign various squads)
- Any damage taken during the repair is to be repaired before being able to reuse the building.

If it's what you want, why not. Only thing I can tell you is as USF or UKF, losing a building and having to repair it is equal to losing the game.
15 Aug 2019, 20:50 PM
#125
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808



And now they'll beat them a little bit more consistently. Glad we're on the same boat.

And God in heaven does it not sweeten the sting of having the late-game non-doc indirect fire nerfed from existence.


by that logic we should buff volks long range dps, so they beat riflemen in long range more consistently. Ther was no plausible evidence that riflemen needed any buffs, they were the best balanced performing mainline inf in the game.
15 Aug 2019, 20:52 PM
#126
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 20:50 PMAlphrum


by that logic we should buff volks long range dps, so they beat riflemen in long range more consistently. Ther was no plausible evidence that riflemen needed any buffs, they were the best balanced performing mainline inf in the game.

Have you watched recent tournaments?
15 Aug 2019, 21:17 PM
#127
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358


Lol major, brit company command, soviet t3 and t4, ostheer t3 (none of which even get heavy tanks).
Why don't we just give okw t0 tiger that costs 1 manpower? Would that finally make you happy?

And schwerer is a free area denial tool just as much as lieutenant, captain, and major are free squads.

Let me answer you again, since you quoted me again. I never got your answer about the free USF squads so i will take that as a point to myself.
There is no need to exaggerate that much, i think that is widely known that allied biased players think axis get lots of things for 'free' (fausts, nades, HQflak) and they are wrong. Because if that were the case, USF gets free squads and no one can deny that with that mindset. In all cases costs include the units involved. Its simply not okay to say "OKW must pay 135FU to rebuild its tank factory meanwhile USF have to invest only time to repair it", even when that determines the game is over.

The issue now is that SwererHQ got a rework but its not enough to address the two main problems around it. 1st earlier Obers (They now require -40 FU at least) and the JP4 that is not worth between Pz4 and Pz5. It might be in a good direction, but it requires a little buff nudge to please all non-biased players.
15 Aug 2019, 21:18 PM
#128
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 20:44 PMEsxile


No, I'm telling you that if you want a FREE repair, that's what you'll get.

- Repair where it stand and not rebuild wherever you want.
- 5 minutes to fully repair (but it can be reduce if you assign various squads)
- Any damage taken during the repair is to be repaired before being able to reuse the building.

If it's what you want, why not. Only thing I can tell you is as USF or UKF, losing a building and having to repair it is equal to losing the game.


This is pritty dumb logic. Apart from that this 5 minutes to repair is BS, fuel is just a function of time anyways, so spending 300 MP and 135 fuel on OKW is spending time. What is better waiting 5 minuets to get 135 fuel to build t3 or spending 5 minutes repairing and using that 135 fuel to get a tank?
15 Aug 2019, 21:29 PM
#129
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 20:03 PMKatitof

Fuel and mp cost for OKW teching is in line with any other faction.
Flak doesn't require any additional investment to activate it, doesn't eat pop cap, doesn't have upkeep.
Its more free then USF officers.

Its attached to something that has its own cost, but that somethings cost, again, is in line with equivalents of all other factions that do not grant anything free that directly impacts on field presence depending on where you put it.

I dont completely agree, but a little bit.
OKW teching is in line, and it should. Flak requiring popcap nor upkeep is just a dumb argument.
The additional investment to activate it is something you just made up, i could simply answer it with a "it is included with the SWS upgrade" and there is no real way to prove each wrong.
Imagine if you had to pay "any additional investment" to enable bofors to fire, wouldnt that be nonsense?

The SwererHQ gives you BOTH, a tank factory and a stationary flak gun, no one can determine how much the flak gun costed since they were both bundled together. After this patch we all now know it requires +40 FU and +100 MP.
15 Aug 2019, 21:51 PM
#130
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3596 | Subs: 1



This is pritty dumb logic. Apart from that this 5 minutes to repair is BS, fuel is just a function of time anyways, so spending 300 MP and 135 fuel on OKW is spending time. What is better waiting 5 minuets to get 135 fuel to build t3 or spending 5 minutes repairing and using that 135 fuel to get a tank?


You tell me, 135 fuel to build where you want vs 5 minutes of repair possibly under fire at the same location your truck is. Also let me know how you do that if the territory is occupy by your opponent.
15 Aug 2019, 22:06 PM
#131
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 21:51 PMEsxile


You tell me, 135 fuel to build where you want vs 5 minutes of repair possibly under fire at the same location your truck is. Also let me know how you do that if the territory is occupy by your opponent.


The one that lets you get the tank fastest? How is that not self evident?
15 Aug 2019, 22:59 PM
#132
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

What would you say, if base-buildings of all fraction can't be destroyed, simply damaged, so that they can't order units?

e.g. OKW-base will become a frak, you can repair it or destroy it by your own (like PaK 88) if you wan't to rebuild it.

Same can be made with Soviets and Ostheers base, so all fraction become same chance like Brits and US have.


e.g. OKW also got the funktion you can't refresh if you arn't in connected area, so that also fits.
16 Aug 2019, 08:03 AM
#133
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

What would you say, if base-buildings of all fraction can't be destroyed, simply damaged, so that they can't order units?

e.g. OKW-base will become a frak, you can repair it or destroy it by your own (like PaK 88) if you wan't to rebuild it.

Same can be made with Soviets and Ostheers base, so all fraction become same chance like Brits and US have.


e.g. OKW also got the funktion you can't refresh if you arn't in connected area, so that also fits.


Then you have less then zero risk for OKW aggressively and recklessly putting trucks forward as punishment no longer exists.

Or, we could not try to fix something that isn't broken and first time in 5 years have OKW players consider an actual risk to how they put trucks out.
16 Aug 2019, 09:35 AM
#134
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Aug 2019, 08:03 AMKatitof


Then you have less then zero risk for OKW aggressively and recklessly putting trucks forward as punishment no longer exists.

Or, we could not try to fix something that isn't broken and first time in 5 years have OKW players consider an actual risk to how they put trucks out.


You can't use them, rep. them at the frontline is more risk than reset. You need the base, you only get the chance so survive some situations. Like UK and US have.

Try it out, then decide.
16 Aug 2019, 17:44 PM
#135
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450



You can't use them, rep. them at the frontline is more risk than reset. You need the base, you only get the chance so survive some situations. Like UK and US have.

Try it out, then decide.


This is heavily skewed in okw's favor.
Might as well come out of the closet.
16 Aug 2019, 19:48 PM
#136
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359

lol @ okw babbies super mad they cant just slap their T4 on whatever VP they decide to
16 Aug 2019, 20:00 PM
#137
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



You can't use them, rep. them at the frontline is more risk than reset. You need the base, you only get the chance so survive some situations. Like UK and US have.

Try it out, then decide.


"potentially not losing any resources or temporarily losing access to production is less risky then certainly losing resources and having to pay again to resume production"

Where the fuck is logic in that?
I can see plenty of entitlement and denial tho.
16 Aug 2019, 20:31 PM
#138
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Aug 2019, 20:00 PMKatitof


"potentially not losing any resources or temporarily losing access to production is less risky then certainly losing resources and having to pay again to resume production"

Where the fuck is logic in that?
I can see plenty of entitlement and denial tho.


Same for Allii and US bases? Same bias for Ostheer and Soviet base, where I would also want that mechanism.
16 Aug 2019, 21:44 PM
#139
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

1) If you're getting your base buildings completely blown up constantly as USF then you have bigger problems than balance (namely your own skill level).

2) USF bases don't pin infantry and pen tanks and can't be placed wherever the hell one likes.

You have to balance the free, effective area denial capabilities of the schwerer with the risk of it getting attacked and destroyed, which isn't even that hard of a thing to deal with on 1v1 maps since cutoffs/important points are oftentimes extremely close to your base anyway (langreskaya, lost glider). If you're that worried about your schwerer getting dumpstered build it in the corner of your base, and you're still on exactly even footing with every other faction that doesn't literally get a giant gun on top of their tech buildings (except maybe USF free officers but they have an asston of sidetechs and more MP bleed anyway).
16 Aug 2019, 22:12 PM
#140
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

1) If you're getting your base buildings completely blown up constantly as USF then you have bigger problems than balance (namely your own skill level).

2) USF bases don't pin infantry and pen tanks and can't be placed wherever the hell one likes.

You have to balance the free, effective area denial capabilities of the schwerer with the risk of it getting attacked and destroyed, which isn't even that hard of a thing to deal with on 1v1 maps since cutoffs/important points are oftentimes extremely close to your base anyway (langreskaya, lost glider). If you're that worried about your schwerer getting dumpstered build it in the corner of your base, and you're still on exactly even footing with every other faction that doesn't literally get a giant gun on top of their tech buildings (except maybe USF free officers but they have an asston of sidetechs and more MP bleed anyway).


We are speaking about full tech costs, and not 1vs1.

Stop bringing 1vs1 arugments, this gamemode is dead.

Edit: And I don't play OKW that often, because it is a shitty fraction. The fraction is simply bad designed.
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