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September Balance Patch preview [SPBP] - general discussion

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14 Aug 2019, 22:05 PM
#41
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17522 | Subs: 8

I would just like to emphasize to everyone that the AOE and scatter changes on heavy tanks are somewhat WIP and we would really like some feedback on how they feel in real match environments.

Replays would be great.

And how should they feel?

Like pre-patch ost tiger?
Like KV-2?
Like HE sherman?

What kind of performance relative to what we already have is intended here?
14 Aug 2019, 22:10 PM
#42
avatar of thekingsown10

Posts: 232

I definitely would like to see the Wehr halftrack flame mortar ability looked at as well as it seriously under performs for 45 munitions . Comparing the USF mortar halftrack and the Wehr one is laughable.
14 Aug 2019, 22:12 PM
#43
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17522 | Subs: 8

I definitely would like to see the Wehr halftrack flame mortar ability looked at as well as it seriously under performs for 45 munitions . Looking at the USF mortar halftrack and the Wehr is laughable despite costing the same.

Did you even read the patch notes for other factions?
Because USF MHT got massive nerf to WP barrage.
14 Aug 2019, 22:13 PM
#44
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3085 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Aug 2019, 22:05 PMKatitof
And how should they feel?

Like pre-patch ost tiger?
Like KV-2?
Like HE sherman?

What kind of performance relative to what we already have is intended here?


The changes are meant to mimic the Brummbar AOE profile (large area of effect with health damage, but small kill radius) but at a reduced power level. Iconic features should still be there (IS-2 should still have the biggest AOE but also the biggest scatter, Pershing should still be the most effective, while Tiger and Tiger II should still be just consistent) but the guns should now give much more reliable and predictable damage, forcing squads to retreat in 2-3 hits (up to 4-5 if they miss some shots) instead of being an RNG fest of either completely missing or wiping several models in one hit.
14 Aug 2019, 22:13 PM
#45
avatar of thekingsown10

Posts: 232

I did and I tested it to boot. You are forgetting it also has timed shells with the white phosphorus all costing half the price of the flame shell .
14 Aug 2019, 22:14 PM
#46
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



The changes are meant to mimic the Brummbar AOE profile (large area of effect with health damage, but small kill radius) but at a reduced power level. Iconic features should still be there (IS-2 should still have the biggest AOE but also the biggest scatter, Pershing should still be the most effective, while Tiger and Tiger II should still be consistent) but the guns should now give much more reliable and predictable damage, forcing squads to retreat in 2-3 hits (up to 4-5 if they miss some shots) instead of being hit or miss
i guess they never miss EH :romeoHairDay:
14 Aug 2019, 23:15 PM
#47
avatar of Acidfreak

Posts: 281

I would just like to emphasize to everyone that the AOE and scatter changes on heavy tanks are somewhat WIP and we would really like some feedback on how they feel in real match environments.

The changes are meant to mimic the Brummbar AOE profile (large area of effect with health damage, but small kill radius) but at a reduced power level. Iconic features should still be there (IS-2 should still have the biggest AOE but also the biggest scatter, Pershing should still be the most effective, while Tiger and Tiger II should still be consistent) but the guns should now give much more reliable and predictable damage, forcing squads to retreat in 2-3 hits (up to 4-5 if they miss some shots) instead of being an RNG fest of either completely missing or wiping several models in one hit.


Replays would be great.


Does isu 152 also have ots anti infantry shot modified? What was the reason for not lowering the cp requirements for isu despite it being tied to tech as well. I know elephant is also unchanged. Just want to know the reason behind it.
14 Aug 2019, 23:43 PM
#48
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 523


We by all means could have pushed them into the full on infiltration squad role (see commandos and stormtroopers)


I seriously wished that you have pushed. Their current camo is only working either you are there before your opponent (which in many cases won't happen since you will want falls behind the lines and those lines are closer to your opponent) or your opponent was fallen asleep on the keyboard and you got there.

I think they will not be overpowered or anything like that since they don't have the chrushing power of commandos or stormtrooper in CQC and are as you say glass cannons.

With the current changes they will be even harder to use IMO. Let me explain why :

1- They start with Kar98s so at first they will need to fight at long range or will get destroyed by many allied units. (So at first they are bad right ?)

2- When they get their first upgrade they will want to fight in long-mid range still. BUT a 4 man squad with identical survivability with Volks. We know how Volks face IS, Penals, Rifles etc. but that is 260MP spammable Volks not the 320 (with current changes) "Elite Infantry" Falls. And also to close the gap to throw the infamous grenade they are not durable as PGrens or Obers to do that and will definently drop at least 1 model before throwing the nade.

3-When they get their second upgrade it is the Falls we currently know with a little harder punch. But I still
seriously doubt will they deal more than the Ober. (That must be the trade off right ? For survivability you get better aggressiveness.) Thus Obers still will outshine and outperform Falls IMO (And with changes Obers are also coming faster so I definently see no point of Falls).


I think for those reasons they need to get the commando camo without any changes to current survivability and be deployed at 3CP. Because it looks like only this change can save them from being an inferior Ober.

14 Aug 2019, 23:49 PM
#49
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3085 | Subs: 7

Does isu 152 also have ots anti infantry shot modified? What was the reason for not lowering the cp requirements for isu despite it being tied to tech as well. I know elephant is also unchanged. Just want to know the reason behind it.


No, as for now, the ISU-152 has no AOE changes (because dealing really high infantry damage is kind of its main purpose).

All the heavy tank destroyers / assault guns CP values were not changed due to the higher impact they have on games (than heavy tanks). In particular the Elefant and the Jagdtiger, but we decided the ISU-152 also fits this category. As the arrival of a heavy tank destroyer can potentially completely shut down the enemy's tanks or infantry, we did not want to allow them to come sooner than they do now.

Them being tied to tech too is basically just a standardization change, so that all heavy call-in vehicles work the same way, because we figured by the time Elefants, ISU-152s or Jagdtigers are deployed players will virtually always have their highest tech already up anyway.
14 Aug 2019, 23:58 PM
#50
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2295 | Subs: 4

Please don't take away the only things making the raketen interesting.

Leave the range at 50 and give retreat back. Adding a fifth model is enough to make it more survivable, and cloak requiring standing still fixes the cheese.

The raketen was always a powerful unit, just wiped too easily and stolen. Don't increase the range, don't remove retreat. The other changes are good enough to fix the unit while keeping it unique.
15 Aug 2019, 00:04 AM
#51
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 3080 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Aug 2019, 23:43 PMJilet


I seriously wished that you have pushed. Their current camo is only working either you are there before your opponent (which in many cases won't happen since you will want falls behind the lines and those lines are closer to your opponent) or your opponent was fallen asleep on the keyboard and you got there.

I think they will not be overpowered or anything like that since they don't have the chrushing power of commandos or stormtrooper in CQC and are as you say glass cannons.

With the current changes they will be even harder to use IMO. Let me explain why :

1- They start with Kar98s so at first they will need to fight at long range or will get destroyed by many allied units. (So at first they are bad right ?)

2- When they get their first upgrade they will want to fight in long-mid range still. BUT a 4 man squad with identical survivability with Volks. We know how Volks face IS, Penals, Rifles etc. but that is 260MP spammable Volks not the 320 (with current changes) "Elite Infantry" Falls. And also to close the gap to throw the infamous grenade they are not durable as PGrens or Obers to do that and will definently drop at least 1 model before throwing the nade.

3-When they get their second upgrade it is the Falls we currently know with a little harder punch. But I still
seriously doubt will they deal more than the Ober. (That must be the trade off right ? For survivability you get better aggressiveness.) Thus Obers still will outshine and outperform Falls IMO (And with changes Obers are also coming faster so I definently see no point of Falls).


I think for those reasons they need to get the commando camo without any changes to current survivability and be deployed at 3CP. Because it looks like only this change can save them from being an inferior Ober.



They could be made into a 5 man squad, 5th man acts as a "squad leader" of sorts and comes with an MP40 and stays with it to help with their survivability.
15 Aug 2019, 00:13 AM
#52
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2491 | Subs: 3



Doesnt an un-upgraded Ober loose vs most allied infantry when it would come out, IE vs a squad that has a weapon upgrade and 2-3 stars of veterency?

I mean its very plausible that an ober at that point is facing a vet 3 penal with 6 men and .85 target size which has an overall more base long range DPS than an ober.


If your opponent has vet 3 mainline infantry by the time you rushed a 95 fuel (15+80) construction right after medic HQ (= 25+15 = 40), you are doing something wrong I am afraid.

You usually never have less than +20 fuel income at average, so its easily possible to rush the unupgraded t4 at the 6 or 7 min mark. (medic hq into t4 without medics or flak HT = 135 fuel)

In 2v2 and upwards that is. In 1v1 its gonna be a little bit slower
15 Aug 2019, 00:15 AM
#53
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 523



They could be made into a 5 man squad, 5th man acts as a "squad leader" of sorts and comes with an MP40 and stays with it to help with their survivability.


That is actually the OST Falls from the All Units Mod but I don't think packing an extra close range DPS will be good and with their Kar-98s it will feel awkward IMO.
15 Aug 2019, 00:16 AM
#54
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Aug 2019, 23:58 PMTobis
Please don't take away the only things making the raketen interesting.

Leave the range at 50 and give retreat back. Adding a fifth model is enough to make it more survivable, and cloak requiring standing still fixes the cheese.

The raketen was always a powerful unit, just wiped too easily and stolen. Don't increase the range, don't remove retreat. The other changes are good enough to fix the unit while keeping it unique.


You make a point about some things like keeping the retreat. It is what makes it somewhat unique, though the current function is extremely frustrating.

I still find its current range a huge pain in the ass. It definitely needs some improvement like at least min +10 range or max +15 range.

+5 add is simply too meager.

All in all, it does needs some improvements in range and survivability mostly. Definitely nerf camo. That is my conclusion.

15 Aug 2019, 00:49 AM
#55
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 3080 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 00:15 AMJilet


That is actually the OST Falls from the All Units Mod but I don't think packing an extra close range DPS will be good and with their Kar-98s it will feel awkward IMO.


It's more about their survivability than anything else really, he could be armed with a pistol for all I care.
aaa
15 Aug 2019, 01:26 AM
#56
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1483

Revert the ZIS changes please. It serves as mini katusha to punish camping abusers. Also balances mg difference. Just a "health damage" for 30 muni. It wont be used. It have to stay as effective as now against mgs at very least.

Cons upgarde is not needed to be any faster. They are fine now.
15 Aug 2019, 01:42 AM
#57
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1695

My random comments.

This don't target the 60 range TD as alluded?

Seems an overall buff to allies again...ost continues to be worse faction late game.

Allies heavy armour are same or better for the sov.

Pershing is going to run rings around tiger and all. How many axis tanks get >270 pen?

5 more fuel to jackson.. why bother? Its not like usf need fuel late game. Doesn't address usf popcap excess still, besides jackson known niceties..

Scott is still too cheap.

Twp renaming ok, but useless still on stug.

+2 church hill is a start. But still no buff to its counters, hint panther. Brit can still go double Churchill double re piats for both AI and AT..

Why buff firefly?

Why buff crowmell, looks better than p4 now. Reason why its not use because FF Churchill are far better to wait a little for.

Heavy crush to comet..not sure how 4 man ost can handle...

So allies mg keel getting better suppression and non changes to their strength? Mg42 needs be cheaper than...

More sight nerfs to ost, does it affect allies commander upgrade? Allies have more recon still..sov have a uncounterable doct with offmap recon + arty.

P4 command 0.9 to 0.8, does it allow 1 more hit still? Or just uselessly nerfed stats.....

Removing retreat from rak? I guess allies whinner won..


15 Aug 2019, 02:32 AM
#58
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 767

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 01:42 AMmrgame2
My random comments.

This don't target the 60 range TD as alluded?

Seems an overall buff to allies again...ost continues to be worse faction late game.

Allies heavy armour are same or better for the sov.

Pershing is going to run rings around tiger and all. How many axis tanks get >270 pen?

5 more fuel to jackson.. why bother? Its not like usf need fuel late game. Doesn't address usf popcap excess still, besides jackson known niceties..

Scott is still too cheap.

Twp renaming ok, but useless still on stug.

+2 church hill is a start. But still no buff to its counters, hint panther. Brit can still go double Churchill double re piats for both AI and AT..

Why buff firefly?

Why buff crowmell, looks better than p4 now. Reason why its not use because FF Churchill are far better to wait a little for.

Heavy crush to comet..not sure how 4 man ost can handle...

So allies mg keel getting better suppression and non changes to their strength? Mg42 needs be cheaper than...

More sight nerfs to ost, does it affect allies commander upgrade? Allies have more recon still..sov have a uncounterable doct with offmap recon + arty.

P4 command 0.9 to 0.8, does it allow 1 more hit still? Or just uselessly nerfed stats.....

Removing retreat from rak? I guess allies whinner won..




If you think the Panther needs a buff you should probably uninstall the game.
15 Aug 2019, 02:35 AM
#59
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1695

Yes i support changes to panther as suggested here

https://www.coh2.org/topic/91653/panther-armor-rebalance
15 Aug 2019, 04:21 AM
#60
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 911

I did and I tested it to boot. You are forgetting it also has timed shells with the white phosphorus all costing half the price of the flame shell .


stop, incendiary and phosphorus are 2 separate things, you can drop smoke on a mg and fire at it the same time, you can though do that with incendiary. if you give buffs then support weapons will be completely countered and useless.
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