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russian armor

Riflemen are too expensive.

7 Feb 2019, 05:20 AM
#41
avatar of #12345678

Posts: 69

I would say the problem with rifleman is their received accuracy. A vet 0 rifleman has 0.97 target size, and they only received next RA reduction on vet 2.

This is a big problem when facing volks, which start with 1 target size, but receive a RA reduction of 0.1 on vet 1. So volks are actually more durable than RM in the beginning. The sandbag capability of volks give them another edge on the fighting.

So I don't agree someone's argument that rifleman had better DPS so they should be more expensive. If you check those top USF player's bulletin, most of them carry the one with RM vet experience reduction.
7 Feb 2019, 05:27 AM
#42
avatar of #12345678

Posts: 69

The volks problem is that they changed the damage of kar98K from 8 and 10. And also they give volks the stg44 update.

So actually, 2 volks squads with stg44 update had the fire power of one grenadier squad and one panzergrenadier. For me, I would rather see they change the price of volks to 270 or 280 MP to better reflect their multiple roles.
7 Feb 2019, 08:34 AM
#43
avatar of Loren

Posts: 94

The volks problem is that they changed the damage of kar98K from 8 and 10. And also they give volks the stg44 update.

So actually, 2 volks squads with stg44 update had the fire power of one grenadier squad and one panzergrenadier. For me, I would rather see they change the price of volks to 270 or 280 MP to better reflect their multiple roles.


+1
7 Feb 2019, 08:57 AM
#44
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 577

The volks problem is that they changed the damage of kar98K from 8 and 10. And also they give volks the stg44 update.

So actually, 2 volks squads with stg44 update had the fire power of one grenadier squad and one panzergrenadier. For me, I would rather see they change the price of volks to 270 or 280 MP to better reflect their multiple roles.


Damage stats are completely misleading without accuracy, DPS values and ranges. Post the DPS of STG volks, PzGrens, upgraded grenadiers and upgraded allied inf and you'll see
7 Feb 2019, 09:12 AM
#45
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6225 | Subs: 1

The volks problem is that they changed the damage of kar98K from 8 and 10. And also they give volks the stg44 update.

So actually, 2 volks squads with stg44 update had the fire power of one grenadier squad and one panzergrenadier. For me, I would rather see they change the price of volks to 270 or 280 MP to better reflect their multiple roles.

Actually VG's K98 have a damage of 12 which is the same as conscripts.

The damage of 12 lead to over kill since it take 7 shot to kill a model with a total damage of 84.
7 Feb 2019, 10:18 AM
#46
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 329



Is RE spam really an issue? Also, reducing their already pathetic DPS will just make them that much worse as a starting unit, and making them even worse with Zooks would really be a terrible idea honestly, as they're usually the only squad you want to even put zooks on since putting them on any other unit will reduce DPS. BARs on RE isn't really an issue I've encountered, nor do I ever find it useful to invest ammo in BARing up a RE when you can give them Zooks for much needed AT.

I agree with the other changes though I guess.


It might be a bit overthrown idea, but merge ability with rear echelons or start with 5 man squad in begin with could greatly improve their utility.
7 Feb 2019, 10:43 AM
#47
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 922 | Subs: 2

The volks problem is that they changed the damage of kar98K from 8 and 10. And also they give volks the stg44 update.

So actually, 2 volks squads with stg44 update had the fire power of one grenadier squad and one panzergrenadier. For me, I would rather see they change the price of volks to 270 or 280 MP to better reflect their multiple roles.

Yeah, wait, like Vipper said, this is just straight up factually wrong.

Volks kars have 12 damage. Volks' stgs are also completely different from pgren stgs.

What's even more baffling to me is that (according to the incorrect statements you made) you're implying that a 500 manpower + 120 munitions investment for OKW shouldn't have the same firepower as a 580 manpower investment for ostheer. If, by chance, you were also considering the increased durability of the two volks squads to argue the necessity of the cost increase, then you should probably have stated that. That said, I'd argue the lower durability would be made up by the superior vet of grens and pgrens.
7 Feb 2019, 12:17 PM
#48
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1897 | Subs: 3

So actually, 2 volks squads with stg44 update had the fire power of one grenadier squad and one panzergrenadier.


Volks STG and Pgrens STG have very different weapon profiles. The Volks/Grens Kar98Ks as well.

4x Volks STG44 have ~30/19/5.8 DPS at range 5/20/35.
4x Pgren STG44 have ~62/28/4.2 DPS at range 5/20/35.

6x Volks Kar98k have ~24/16/10.8 DPS at range 5/20/35.
4x Grens Kar98k have ~20/13.5/9.1 DPS at range 5/20/35.

So no they do not have the same firepower. And OKW even needs a 120 muni investment to come even close.


Ambulance
-Medics gain the same anchor mode as ambulance. They have a X limit on amount of models been healed or they heal at a reduced speed.


I think it would be cool to give USF two options to heal:
- Buildable medic squad that is cheaper (150-200MP) but heals slower (equal to OKW/OST medics). This would help with faster teching and prevent ambu sniping.
- Ambulance that allows mobile healing and reinforcing. Good for team games and forward retreat points. Slightly increased cost (because early forward ambus are borderline OP in 3s and 4s).
7 Feb 2019, 14:23 PM
#49
avatar of #12345678

Posts: 69


Yeah, wait, like Vipper said, this is just straight up factually wrong.

Volks kars have 12 damage. Volks' stgs are also completely different from pgren stgs.

What's even more baffling to me is that (according to the incorrect statements you made) you're implying that a 500 manpower + 120 munitions investment for OKW shouldn't have the same firepower as a 580 manpower investment for ostheer. If, by chance, you were also considering the increased durability of the two volks squads to argue the necessity of the cost increase, then you should probably have stated that. That said, I'd argue the lower durability would be made up by the superior vet of grens and pgrens.



Good, you finally realize 2 rifleman with bar, which cost 560MP + 120 ammo, should have superior performance than one grenadier plus one panzergrenadier or 2 volks with stg44.

7 Feb 2019, 14:36 PM
#50
avatar of #12345678

Posts: 69



Volks STG and Pgrens STG have very different weapon profiles. The Volks/Grens Kar98Ks as well.

4x Volks STG44 have ~30/19/5.8 DPS at range 5/20/35.
4x Pgren STG44 have ~62/28/4.2 DPS at range 5/20/35.

6x Volks Kar98k have ~24/16/10.8 DPS at range 5/20/35.
4x Grens Kar98k have ~20/13.5/9.1 DPS at range 5/20/35.

So no they do not have the same firepower. And OKW even needs a 120 muni investment to come even close.


Have you ever played USF vs OKW? If you played, you will know 2 rifleman with bars cannot beat 2 volks with stg44. The comparison may not that accuracy on DPS. But IN GAME, two volks with stg44 were harder to deal with then one grenadier plus one panzergenadier.
PG lost their 25% firepower when they lose one model. However, the volks only lost model with kar98k and their stg44 can still pour damage on the rifleman.

And in fact, the data you showed have shown that volks had better DPS (17.8 vs. 13.3) at 35.

7 Feb 2019, 15:32 PM
#51
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1633

Do riflemen win matchups 1v1 vs other mainline inf?; check
Do riflemen scale great into lategame, with good vets?; check
Do riflemen have weapon upgrades, and good ones?; check
Do riflemen have 5 man, meaning they survive quite a lot?; check
Do riflemen have doctrinal upgrades, flares, sbags and all that crap?; check
Do riflemen belong to a aggressive/rush faction with smoke supports?; check
Do riflemen receive healing anywhere an ambulance is, even in frontlines?; check
Do riflemen get at least any form of garrison cleaning upgrade?; check

Sir im sorry to say it but this troop cant be expensive enough...
7 Feb 2019, 15:48 PM
#52
avatar of #12345678

Posts: 69

Do riflemen win matchups 1v1 vs other mainline inf?; check
Do riflemen scale great into lategame, with good vets?; check
Do riflemen have weapon upgrades, and good ones?; check
Do riflemen have 5 man, meaning they survive quite a lot?; check
Do riflemen have doctrinal upgrades, flares, sbags and all that crap?; check
Do riflemen belong to a aggressive/rush faction with smoke supports?; check
Do riflemen receive healing anywhere an ambulance is, even in frontlines?; check
Do riflemen get at least any form of garrison cleaning upgrade?; check

Sir im sorry to say it but this troop cant be expensive enough...


The things you mentioned match volks very well. And volks even don't need commander to have these things.
7 Feb 2019, 16:17 PM
#53
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2177 | Subs: 4




Good, you finally realize 2 rifleman with bar, which cost 560MP + 120 ammo, should have superior performance than one grenadier plus one panzergrenadier or 2 volks with stg44.


They do....
7 Feb 2019, 16:44 PM
#54
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 922 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Feb 2019, 16:17 PMTobis

They do....

\thread?
7 Feb 2019, 16:53 PM
#55
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911



And in fact, the data you showed have shown that volks had better DPS (17.8 vs. 13.3) at 35.



Why are you even comparing volks far dps to grens and grens, it's completely useless comparison. Apart from the fact that grens also get a weapon upgrade, comparing the far dps of a close range unit is useless. Futhermore if you wish to buff ogress long range damage go ahead, they arnt actually a very strong unit last time I checked.

But hey while we are at it let's look at a 2 riflemen with 2 bars, 21.4. Oh but those numbers don't support your bias so let's ignore them.

In the end riflemen might start about equal but they have a superior upgrade which they can get two of and they have superior vet. Futhermore that actually get good doctrinal upgrades whereas volks get meme doctrinal upgrades. These advantages have a cost to them.
7 Feb 2019, 18:15 PM
#56
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3899




Good, you finally realize 2 rifleman with bar, which cost 560MP + 120 ammo, should have superior performance than one grenadier plus one panzergrenadier or 2 volks with stg44.

yes they are superior what are u babbling about, 1 bar >2 stg 5 rifle> 4 green/5 volks
can't u do math ?
7 Feb 2019, 18:17 PM
#57
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3899



Have you ever played USF vs OKW? If you played, you will know 2 rifleman with bars cannot beat 2 volks with stg44. The comparison may not that accuracy on DPS. But IN GAME, two volks with stg44 were harder to deal with then one grenadier plus one panzergenadier.
PG lost their 25% firepower when they lose one model. However, the volks only lost model with kar98k and their stg44 can still pour damage on the rifleman.

And in fact, the data you showed have shown that volks had better DPS (17.8 vs. 13.3) at 35.

u want to disagree with in game stats ?
then u should make changes that don't involve game stats, u can add a cool hat on rifleman if u want or make them dance while they shoot or put skin on the rifles
7 Feb 2019, 18:54 PM
#58
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3107 | Subs: 1

The problem I see with rifles is, as with balancing most allied infantry, Volks. Double gunned rifles are better than volks, but at a massively inflated cost. Rifles cost more off the hop, then need a side tech to unlock racks, then double the munitions to be able to be confident against volks which is absurd. Volks are handed everything they need to tackle anything while somehow remaining cheaper than the competition, and the only competition they are comparable in price ALSO need to side tech for basic tools and will get Absoultly roflstomped by volks anyways.

The match up of rifles and grens feels right, grens win at range, rifles up close and both their weapon upgrades reflect that relative balance, but for volks of course they get to retain (and actually slightly improve) their long range dps while massively improving their close range which tosses everything up in the air.
7 Feb 2019, 19:32 PM
#59
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1633



The things you mentioned match volks very well. And volks even don't need commander to have these things.


Do volks win matchups 1v1 vs other mainline inf?; nope
(riflemen beats them)
Do volks scale great into lategame, with good vets?; nope
(unless they vet, they suck a lot)
Do volks have weapon upgrades, and good ones?; check
Do volks have 5 man, and they survive quite a lot?; nope
(allied factions have great armour AI and AOE)
Do volks have doctrinal upgrades, flares, sbags and all that crap?; check
(dont get flares, neither mobile AT but wathever)
Do volks belong to a aggressive/rush faction with smoke supports?; nope
(smoke only comes after HQhT and its bad)
Do volks receive healing anywhere, even in frontlines?; nope
(since HQhT more often used in base because its immobile and fragile and vulnerable to any kind of indirect fire)
Do volks get at least any form of garrison cleaning upgrade?; check

hmm 3/8 it seems that volks dont have any kind of advantage
7 Feb 2019, 20:34 PM
#60
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6232 | Subs: 1

How can we improve this forum 101: less focus on bad arguments, #fakenews false stats and so on.



Is RE spam really an issue? Also, reducing their already pathetic DPS will just make them that much worse as a starting unit, and making them even worse with Zooks would really be a terrible idea honestly, as they're usually the only squad you want to even put zooks on since putting them on any other unit will reduce DPS. BARs on RE isn't really an issue I've encountered, nor do I ever find it useful to invest ammo in BARing up a RE when you can give them Zooks for much needed AT.

I agree with the other changes though I guess.


RE spam was an issue when they were at 160mp. AT on infantry powerlevels had been adjusted since then, and i don't think that a cheaper platform as in the past would be a good idea. IIRC zook accuracy has been raised so it would also mostly be accounting for that.

If there are still issues in the early game after this change, specially if we account the OKW changes i mentioned or some arise against OH, then it's just a matter of compensating the 40mp powerlevel change from the RET in the base of starting mp.

I think it would be cool to give USF two options to heal:
- Buildable medic squad that is cheaper (150-200MP) but heals slower (equal to OKW/OST medics). This would help with faster teching and prevent ambu sniping.
- Ambulance that allows mobile healing and reinforcing. Good for team games and forward retreat points. Slightly increased cost (because early forward ambus are borderline OP in 3s and 4s).


Someone mentioned Ambulance and i just remember how outdated the healing system for the medic is. They have to chase to heal people and they can't be locked down in a territory or zone as say other chasing medics. I don't think the ambulance requires any change atm.



IF someone else read my previous comment: i'm trying to basically shift power level from late late game (double bar) to early mid stage.
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