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russian armor

Riflemen are too expensive.

7 Feb 2019, 20:43 PM
#61
avatar of What Doth Life?!
Patrion 27

Posts: 1662

All of those dps calculations don't include anything about volks having incendiary grenades, infiltration grenades, healing out of combat, snares without vet, sandbags, or weapon upgrades that can't be stolen (my biggest gripe with rifles is gifting BARS to the enemy.)
7 Feb 2019, 20:59 PM
#62
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3906

All of those dps calculations don't include anything about volks having incendiary grenades, infiltration grenades, healing out of combat, snares without vet, sandbags, or weapon upgrades that can't be stolen (my biggest gripe with rifles is gifting BARS to the enemy.)
u know dropping stg would be a buff right ? 1 deal half the damage of a bar but still occupy 1 weapon slot
7 Feb 2019, 22:46 PM
#63
avatar of blancat

Posts: 561

so many okw whining bois here, lol
7 Feb 2019, 23:27 PM
#64
avatar of Flyingsmonster

Posts: 125

u know dropping stg would be a buff right ? 1 deal half the damage of a bar but still occupy 1 weapon slot


60 ammo for the equivalent damage output of 1 BAR is perfectly reasonable.

I really don't understand the argument, you would have a point if the STG package was 120 ammo. Also, if dropping STG was a "buff" to volks DPS then why is it that pretty much every single OKW player will upgrade to STGs? You're just being silly.
7 Feb 2019, 23:36 PM
#65
avatar of Flyingsmonster

Posts: 125

Do riflemen win matchups 1v1 vs other mainline inf?; check
Do riflemen scale great into lategame, with good vets?; check
Do riflemen have weapon upgrades, and good ones?; check
Do riflemen have 5 man, meaning they survive quite a lot?; check
Do riflemen have doctrinal upgrades, flares, sbags and all that crap?; check
Do riflemen belong to a aggressive/rush faction with smoke supports?; check
Do riflemen receive healing anywhere an ambulance is, even in frontlines?; check
Do riflemen get at least any form of garrison cleaning upgrade?; check

Sir im sorry to say it but this troop cant be expensive enough...


1) They don't in the early game, speaking from experience.
2) Yes, 120 ammo to give them decent firepower, and you have to go back to your base to get them. (can't just click upgrade in the field like Volks)
3) Volks are 5 man squads too though? What's the point?
4) Sandbags are in like 2 commanders, volks get sandbags from the get to for nothing. Sandbags are in a total of 2 commanders, 1 decent (Heavy Cav) the other just bad and useless in most situations (Infantry Company)
5) Riflemen no longer have smoke, so you need to rely on your mortar / other units for it, and almost every faction has some form of smoke and can play aggressive like USF.
6) Ambulance is 250mp / 10 fuel, and bringing it to the front lines is risky until you have a retreat point, most games it just sits in your base. Regardless, has nothing to do with Riflemen.
7) You have to pay 150mp / 15fuel and it will delay getting BARs, meanwhile Volks get it when their truck comes out, and their grenade is better in denying cover / denying buildings.

Volks do pretty much everything above and more for 30 less manpower, and also get vet0 snare which Riflemen do not get until vet1.
7 Feb 2019, 23:37 PM
#66
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911



60 ammo for the equivalent damage output of 1 BAR is perfectly reasonable.

I really don't understand the argument, you would have a point if the STG package was 120 ammo. Also, if dropping STG was a "buff" to volks DPS then why is it that pretty much every single OKW player will upgrade to STGs? You're just being silly.


A droppable stg would be a buff. Apart from the fact that a volk with a missing stg can pick up a bar or lmg, units like obers and JLI can pick them up too. Plus USF players might be greedy and pick one up not realizing a single stg is worse than a bar.
7 Feb 2019, 23:45 PM
#67
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3906



60 ammo for the equivalent damage output of 1 BAR is perfectly reasonable.

I really don't understand the argument, you would have a point if the STG package was 120 ammo. Also, if dropping STG was a "buff" to volks DPS then why is it that pretty much every single OKW player will upgrade to STGs? You're just being silly.
im all in for droprobable stg did u think i was joking ?
7 Feb 2019, 23:47 PM
#68
avatar of DAZ187

Posts: 419

i find okw hard to deal with early game because it always feels they have more units than me early game. on top of that i have to get an early ambo because of bleed.

remove the 100mp from okw and it will be fine.
8 Feb 2019, 00:23 AM
#69
avatar of Flyingsmonster

Posts: 125



A droppable stg would be a buff. Apart from the fact that a volk with a missing stg can pick up a bar or lmg, units like obers and JLI can pick them up too. Plus USF players might be greedy and pick one up not realizing a single stg is worse than a bar.


For the record, I have no issue with volks having another weapon slot in addition to their STG upgrade, just 1 single additional slot at least so they can pick up weapons on the field with stg.
8 Feb 2019, 01:22 AM
#70
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 961 | Subs: 1



For the record, I have no issue with volks having another weapon slot in addition to their STG upgrade, just 1 single additional slot at least so they can pick up weapons on the field with stg.


Im pretty sure it was tested and was very OP so they made it take up both.
8 Feb 2019, 01:51 AM
#71
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1637

I dont really want to pop your fantasy bubble, but:



1) They don't in the early game, speaking from experience.

They do, vanilla riflemen are more effective than any other mainline vanilla inf in mid/short range, without cover and 1v1, also they have great running acc.

2) Yes, 120 ammo to give them decent firepower, and you have to go back to your base to get them. (can't just click upgrade in the field like Volks)

Your riflemen squad will eventually retreat, if not thats a 100% abusive situation towards axis. So im taking this point to myself, riflemen HAVE TO come back to get those upgrades. Also vanilla vet riflemen still beat any vanilla vetted axis inf.


3) Volks are 5 man squads too though? What's the point?

This is not a volks/riflemen topic, go find yourself one and point this out there. Also volks suffer a lot from any kind of allied explosive far more than allied inf.

4) Sandbags are in like 2 commanders, volks get sandbags from the get to for nothing. Sandbags are in a total of 2 commanders, 1 decent (Heavy Cav) the other just bad and useless in most situations (Infantry Company)

Again this is not a volks/riflemen topic. Anyways sbags are not that important when your riflemen are meant to RUSH INTO the enemy lines. So its an "advantage" not having to pay extra menpower for that feature.

5) Riflemen no longer have smoke, so you need to rely on your mortar / other units for it, and almost every faction has some form of smoke and can play aggressive like USF.

Mortar is still T0. No need to necro in facts also. Because riflemen lost their smoke is not meant to be used as a fact to complaint or to demand that back, its gone for good.

6) Ambulance is 250mp / 10 fuel, and bringing it to the front lines is risky until you have a retreat point, most games it just sits in your base. Regardless, has nothing to do with Riflemen.

The whole post was about what you CAN do, no one is debating the cost of an ambulance neither its worth it to bring it up to the frontlines, but you CAN do it. The cost is reflected in what you CAN do.

7) You have to pay 150mp / 15fuel and it will delay getting BARs, meanwhile Volks get it when their truck comes out, and their grenade is better in denying cover / denying buildings.

I dont really care your complaints about build order nor time delays. I play USF also but you dont seem to understant that riflemen cost is because of what they CAN do. Im getting tired of repeating myself. If riflemen came with nades AND BARS, that far beyond OP reaches and this game will get renamed as "USF Heroes 2"

Volks do pretty much everything above and more for 30 less manpower, and also get vet0 snare which Riflemen do not get until vet1.

Proved you wrong in each and every point. Pls stick to the topic and dont get volks involved in any L2P issue.
8 Feb 2019, 01:54 AM
#72
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1637

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Feb 2019, 23:47 PMDAZ187
i find okw hard to deal with early game because it always feels they have more units than me early game. on top of that i have to get an early ambo because of bleed.

remove the 100mp from okw and it will be fine.

This.
Ty sir
/Thread
8 Feb 2019, 02:05 AM
#73
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3118 | Subs: 1

I like that you specified that rifles will win mid close with no cover but when volks sand bags are brought up you call foul...
8 Feb 2019, 02:08 AM
#74
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1637

I like that you specified that rifles will win mid close with no cover but when volks sand bags are brought up you call foul...

Actually if what you are saying is "my riflemen should destroy any infantry regardless they are sat up in defensive positions" id say its very biased. Stupidity is a problem i do not like to account in. Since i know you didnt, just let me explain.

Sbags are useful, yes. To rush into enemies, no.
If needed i can elaborate.
8 Feb 2019, 02:41 AM
#75
avatar of SpadeAce999

Posts: 17

I think that Rifle squad so expensive to any other main line infantry. i suggest that cost maybe other guy's agree. 260/26 and m1 damage must be increased 8 to 10.
8 Feb 2019, 12:44 PM
#76
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3906

I think that Rifle squad so expensive to any other main line infantry. i suggest that cost maybe other guy's agree. 260/26 and m1 damage must be increased 8 to 10.
ho yes decrease the price AND buff the damage do u want nuke button too ? maybe give a nuke to each rifle squad ?
8 Feb 2019, 15:44 PM
#77
avatar of The_Usurper86

Posts: 48

The problem I see with rifles is, as with balancing most allied infantry, Volks. Double gunned rifles are better than volks, but at a massively inflated cost. Rifles cost more off the hop, then need a side tech to unlock racks, then double the munitions to be able to be confident against volks which is absurd. Volks are handed everything they need to tackle anything while somehow remaining cheaper than the competition, and the only competition they are comparable in price ALSO need to side tech for basic tools and will get Absoultly roflstomped by volks anyways.

The match up of rifles and grens feels right, grens win at range, rifles up close and both their weapon upgrades reflect that relative balance, but for volks of course they get to retain (and actually slightly improve) their long range dps while massively improving their close range which tosses everything up in the air.


I thought this was the best breakdown of RM Vs Volks with "massively inflated cost" really sticking out to me. Correct me if I'm wrong (easily could be), but I thought the idea with USF is great early infantry, if played correctly will result in strong pushing power for aggressive early-mid game play. When you factor in Initial cost, side tech, double munis etc. By the time you can confidently get your infantry to fight upgraded Volks, you've pushed into late early/mid. One gentleman discredits another of bringing sandbags into the argument which I tend to disagree with. If volks can put up sandbags, and the design of RM is to be aggressive and push, they are denied this as they try to advance close-mid range while volks are chilling in green cover behind sandbags. For those reading, I'm not trying to bash on Volks. Just stating from my experience volks are tough to deal with early game especially once they get those STG's using my RM which I was led to believe early game benefited USF Inf most.
10 Feb 2019, 17:26 PM
#78
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1041

Sick of threads that want an allied buff because of some OKW unit. Then what will it do to Ostheer?! Ost never gets powercreep. Riflemen are very good vs grens so the solution is to nerf volks. I suggested nerfing the stg close and midrange dps but slight buff to max range. Increase the speed of volks. Now OKW players must keep their volks at max range at all times which is a bit easier due to slightly faster speed and rifles will be punished a bit less for closing the distance. Also a slightly faster speed will allow volks to flank more effectively since the Leig is subpar.
10 Feb 2019, 17:58 PM
#79
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1637


snip

Let me break it down for you. COH2 is a game not a movie. USF can loose too. Also strong early game domination means win in this game almos every time
11 Feb 2019, 06:44 AM
#80
avatar of Loren

Posts: 94

Sick of threads that want an allied buff because of some OKW unit. Then what will it do to Ostheer?! Ost never gets powercreep. Riflemen are very good vs grens so the solution is to nerf volks. I suggested nerfing the stg close and midrange dps but slight buff to max range. Increase the speed of volks. Now OKW players must keep their volks at max range at all times which is a bit easier due to slightly faster speed and rifles will be punished a bit less for closing the distance. Also a slightly faster speed will allow volks to flank more effectively since the Leig is subpar.



The biggest advantage of Ostheer: not encounters OKW.
The biggest disadvantage of Ostheer: encounters Soviet.

:/
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