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russian armor

Riflemen are too expensive.

ddd
6 Feb 2019, 14:34 PM
#21
avatar of ddd

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1

I dont think reducing initial cost is a good idea. That would require further balancing to keep riflemen spam at bay. Beside usf has already pretty good start versus ostheer so it would be bad for that matchup.

The problem in usf vs okw matchup is you bleed MP so heavily, there is high chance you will end up with your squads near ambulance, waiting for your MP to refill for reinforcing. It also doesnt help that rifles are slow to vet and they get at nade at vet1 instead of useful combat bonuses. Also, volks are getting stronger much sooner than rifles. Their weapon upgrade is easier to get and they get combat bonuses starting from vet1.

In my opinion dropping reinforcement cost to 26mp and moving part of vet2 and vet3 bonuses to vet1 (alongside at nades) would be best solution. Also dropping MP cost of ambulance to 100MP would be good too.
6 Feb 2019, 15:20 PM
#22
avatar of Finndeed
Strategist Badge

Posts: 609 | Subs: 1


Again though, where are the numbers to back up that statement? Every time I've seen this argument made within the last few months, it was never supported by numbers.


I not going to dispute your numbers. However, from my in game experience i can't help but feel volks proformance, especially in the early game, is pretty much on par with rifles.

I did look roughly at the DPS curves between volks and Rifles finding that its actually much closer than you are suggesting, tho i was using Cruzz's old un-updated site.

I suspect that because rifles are inclided to attempt to close the distance (as that is where rifles have the most advantage) and causing them to take too higher losses.

Maybe we could set up some IRL tests?
6 Feb 2019, 15:49 PM
#23
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6223 | Subs: 1


I not going to dispute your numbers. However, from my in game experience i can't help but feel volks proformance, especially in the early game, is pretty much on par with rifles.
...

Imo problem lies elsewhere.

Grenadier where (and should be) the benchmark and not VGs. Riflemen where OP compared to grenadiers because of faction design since they had to carry the faction.

The early appearance of powerful units like Penal, Assault engineer, JLI, Pathfinder, Cav Riflemen, SP, ST44 VG and so on has made Riflemen seem weaker by comparison.

One should either reduce the power level available early or give powerful early units to all factions and that should include earlier access to PGs and Obers.
6 Feb 2019, 17:16 PM
#24
avatar of The_Usurper86

Posts: 48

Could reducing the production time of RM be a potential solution? Like most (I'm guessing) I always open with 2 RM squads. I find that because it takes the extra time to get to 280mp by the time my 2nd unit is built and on its way to the front line,my RE and first RM are often already fighting against a sturmpio and two volks. If all stats stay the same yet the RM can get out a little quicker, potentially that could help ensure the USF player isn't fighting outnumbered engagements from the get go.

6 Feb 2019, 17:40 PM
#25
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1132 | Subs: 1

Riflemen are fine. If volks are too cost efficient, look at them. Most mainline infantry in this game are balanced around cost. Volks are screwy, but I personally have no idea how to fix them. Their problem has more do do with their faction than anything else (ie. early game pressure provided by early sturms + kubel for back capping whilst sitting on enemy cutoff, combined with no tradeoffs required for their nades/ stgs.)
6 Feb 2019, 17:49 PM
#26
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3899

Riflemen are fine. If volks are too cost efficient, look at them. Most mainline infantry in this game are balanced around cost. Volks are screwy, but I personally have no idea how to fix them. Their problem has more do do with their faction than anything else (ie. early game pressure provided by early sturms + kubel for back capping whilst sitting on enemy cutoff, combined with no tradeoffs required for their nades/ stgs.)
the problem are the stg, just swap the mp 40s on the fire doc with the stg and buff their vet
6 Feb 2019, 17:51 PM
#27
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1279 | Subs: 2

I actually forgot to vote last night, good to see the thread is doing mostly civil discussion, overall.
I just wonder if Riflemen are Okay then why most people are playing Armor and using AEs instead? I guess they are OP and it's not Riflemen bleeding too hard early to midgame.
6 Feb 2019, 18:16 PM
#28
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2177 | Subs: 4



I not going to dispute your numbers. However, from my in game experience i can't help but feel volks proformance, especially in the early game, is pretty much on par with rifles.

I did look roughly at the DPS curves between volks and Rifles finding that its actually much closer than you are suggesting, tho i was using Cruzz's old un-updated site.

I suspect that because rifles are inclided to attempt to close the distance (as that is where rifles have the most advantage) and causing them to take too higher losses.

Maybe we could set up some IRL tests?

They are pretty close at anything above mid range, but rifles win handily anywhere closer than that. Volks are really only winning 1 on 1 engagements if they are already in green cover and the rifle advances on them from max range, which really isn't that unreasonable.
6 Feb 2019, 20:07 PM
#29
avatar of Flyingsmonster

Posts: 125

I read most of your replies. I agree that Riflemen are not weak, that's not the argument I'm making. I know they have good veterancy bonuses, and I know they excel at close ranges. I still feel like a small reduction in mp is not a massive buff, nor would it be a massive boon to spamming riflemen. 260mp feels pretty reasonable to me.

Again, either way, either a manpower reduction without a reduction to re-enforce, or just a plain decrease in re-enforce cost would help alleviate the mp bleed of USF. I've also seen others suggest a reduction to OKW mp, but I don't know much about how that would impact balance, and it seems silly to change something from another faction to address an issue with USF.

I've also seen people suggest reducing build time for Riflemen, I don't know how their build time compares to Axis units like grens / volks so I can't really comment on that.

I also like the idea of reducing the price of the ambulance, even by just as much as 50-100mp would help a lot with manpower as USF.

It's not so much the price of Riflemen in general but the MP requirements that USF can have in many games that makes things hurt.
6 Feb 2019, 20:14 PM
#30
avatar of oakdk
Patrion 14

Posts: 63

As okw player against usf, u just spam grenadiers, and blob up, then u force usf to retreat, and u have the map.. Then u tech faster and its gg... As usf i miss more smoke options and a proper MG to stop okw blob
6 Feb 2019, 20:36 PM
#31
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3899

>as OKW player
> grenadiers
6 Feb 2019, 21:17 PM
#32
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6230 | Subs: 1

Throwing some random 15 minute thought hot potato for you guys to handle it.

USF:
BAR
-Slightly nerf BAR performance across the board. Nerf long range performance so they behave closer to assault Rifles than LMG (aka close mid range). NOTE: this should also apply to any other AR with long range DPS.
-Reduce muni cost.

RET
-Reduce cost. Reduce DPS.
-Make them have a weaker performance with pick up weapons. Less DPS with BARs, slower RoF and accuracy with zook. Fix the RET spam issue.
-Make Volley fire attractive when equipped with at least 1 bar or scrap that idea and rework it.

Ambulance
-Medics gain the same anchor mode as ambulance. They have a X limit on amount of models been healed or they heal at a reduced speed.

Rifles
- Reduce mp cost by 10.

OKW
Teching:
-Reduce starting mp by 50/80.
-SWS HT now cost 30/40mp less
-OKW T4 cost split in half or 1/3 n 2/3. First half unlocks Obers and maybe JPIV. Second half unlocks PIV, V and the Flak cannon.

Volks:
-Increase sandbag buildtime.
6 Feb 2019, 21:20 PM
#33
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6223 | Subs: 1

...

I can agree with most proposed changes (and have proposed similar changes myself) but I would also remove the St44 upgrade, redesign it or replace it with MP40 upgrade.
6 Feb 2019, 21:29 PM
#34
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 64

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2019, 21:20 PMVipper

I can agree with most proposed changes (and have proposed similar changes myself) but I would also remove the St44 upgrade, redesign it or replace it with MP40 upgrade.


aha and why ? more nerfs for okw? so u want to fight IS,penals and Rifles with mp 40 Volks in the mid-late game.

Than pls remove them completly and make something new. Something like 6Man double LMG
6 Feb 2019, 21:54 PM
#35
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1035

Don't touch any other inf until JLI is fixed.
6 Feb 2019, 22:08 PM
#36
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6223 | Subs: 1



aha and why ? more nerfs for okw? so u want to fight IS,penals and Rifles with mp 40 Volks in the mid-late game.

Than pls remove them completely and make something new. Something like 6Man double LMG

Many times I have pointed out that the timing of units like Penal is problematic. Units should be balanced around grenadiers and in order for that to happen VG need to be weaker so that they do not overwhelm Soviets.
6 Feb 2019, 22:36 PM
#37
avatar of Flyingsmonster

Posts: 125

Throwing some random 15 minute thought hot potato for you guys to handle it.

USF:
BAR
-Slightly nerf BAR performance across the board. Nerf long range performance so they behave closer to assault Rifles than LMG (aka close mid range). NOTE: this should also apply to any other AR with long range DPS.
-Reduce muni cost.

RET
-Reduce cost. Reduce DPS.
-Make them have a weaker performance with pick up weapons. Less DPS with BARs, slower RoF and accuracy with zook. Fix the RET spam issue.
-Make Volley fire attractive when equipped with at least 1 bar or scrap that idea and rework it.

Ambulance
-Medics gain the same anchor mode as ambulance. They have a X limit on amount of models been healed or they heal at a reduced speed.

Rifles
- Reduce mp cost by 10.

OKW
Teching:
-Reduce starting mp by 50/80.
-SWS HT now cost 30/40mp less
-OKW T4 cost split in half or 1/3 n 2/3. First half unlocks Obers and maybe JPIV. Second half unlocks PIV, V and the Flak cannon.

Volks:
-Increase sandbag buildtime.


Is RE spam really an issue? Also, reducing their already pathetic DPS will just make them that much worse as a starting unit, and making them even worse with Zooks would really be a terrible idea honestly, as they're usually the only squad you want to even put zooks on since putting them on any other unit will reduce DPS. BARs on RE isn't really an issue I've encountered, nor do I ever find it useful to invest ammo in BARing up a RE when you can give them Zooks for much needed AT.

I agree with the other changes though I guess.
6 Feb 2019, 23:02 PM
#38
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6223 | Subs: 1



Is RE spam really an issue? Also, reducing their already pathetic DPS will just make them that much worse as a starting unit, and making them even worse with Zooks would really be a terrible idea honestly, as they're usually the only squad you want to even put zooks on since putting them on any other unit will reduce DPS. BARs on RE isn't really an issue I've encountered, nor do I ever find it useful to invest ammo in BARing up a RE when you can give them Zooks for much needed AT.

I agree with the other changes though I guess.

RE get a big accuracy buff at vet 1 (x1.2). In addition the weapon replaced is worse.

1 RE+1 Bar riflemen have less DPS than 1 bar RE+1 Riflemen.

And yea RE spam was a problem:

"Rear Echelons
We have scaled up Rear echelons up slightly to reduce spam.

Rear echelons cost up from 160 to 200

Rear echelon rifle damage up from 8 to 10"
7 Feb 2019, 00:03 AM
#39
avatar of blancat

Posts: 554

Same price with tommy

But tommy is more stronger than rifles

Garand 8dmg is so silly

Buff garand dmg to 10 or decrease price(270/27)

Nowadays usf dont use rifles more than 2

They are expensive low dps trash
7 Feb 2019, 00:15 AM
#40
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3106 | Subs: 1



Why not do a global upgrade like in COH1?
Pay 300 manpower, 30 fuel and all present and future Riflemen come equipped w 2x BARs
for free. In COH1, all Sherman 75 present and future changed to Sherman 76 this way, too.

Plus, they had the + bonus (Sandbag armor on the tank) when buying the overpriced top .50 cal pintle.
If you think that's too much, throw in grenade upgrade there too ;)

BARs for all rifles for less fuel than soviet pay in just getting basic tools for their "core" infantry? one of which is the worst grenade in the game, yet still more expensive than it is for ost to unlock 3 entire units and a snare idk...
especially given how powerful double armed BAR rifles are
and would they retain weapon slots to pick up guns on the ground? if so THAT wont be OP /s
if so you are removing the players ability to adapt to battlefield conditions
and also destroying the weapon rack system entierly
and USF intended design of flexibility

id go with no on this one from the ground up...
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