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Give OKW flame nade a tech cost?

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30 May 2018, 14:52 PM
#81
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 587



Ok I can respect your post as you look at other factions in a relatively balanced sense. But leaving the flame nade and OKW the same isn't going to help things


Some posts back I already said okw flamenade can be changed to flamers on pio's or maybe only be thrown on garrisons, so I agree it is a problem atm (and not just vs UKF).

I would also say UKF is, was and always will be a shitshow to balance so I would focus on the other 4 factions.

jump backJump back to quoted post30 May 2018, 12:08 PMEsxile


Nop, OkW T2 is dominant on every map that is not garrison heavy and it has one of the best garrison counter in its T2 but yeah it cost fuel... too bad.

At some point you may consider that every factional tier has CONS and PRO and maybe LT tech has a lack of cheap and easy to access garrison cleaner.

You may need to go over your factional bias to understand that.


Allright , thanks for "missing out" on all the reasons rushing stuka is suicide in 1vs1. I also expect your thread about why USF can lose acces to mortar today, since it's cheaper to get pack howi then it is to get stuka (I already prepared your post for that).

Or is your 1200 games as USF 1vs1 vs 3 okw games a sign of factional bias projected unto me?

Your call buddy.
30 May 2018, 15:11 PM
#82
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

why not use tier 2 ? the luch does good damage in garrison and there is the stuka too

Oh boy ... investing 120 fuel+ till you can clear garrisions
30 May 2018, 16:00 PM
#83
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474


Oh boy ... investing 120 fuel+ till you can clear garrisions
it's ur choice, do u want eraly light vehicle and light at but expensive and wipy garrison clear or do u want cheap indirect and anti garrison with mobile suppression platform but later light vehicle or none ? as along as they give a decent granade all its ok (but i do belive that even if they copy paste mill bombs people are gonna say" no way why do okw have THE BEST granade of all faction that are like nukes and they get it FREE !!!!1111!!!11")
30 May 2018, 16:42 PM
#84
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4127 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post30 May 2018, 07:28 AMEsxile


What matters in 1vs1 is the wiping potential of your army and capping territory: Armor doesn't cap points.
You have racketen and Puma to counter medium armor as well.

Know with what you say, you completely make me believe flamnade have to go away, so OKW meta can evolve to something else than spam volks>fast pz4. with a variant including a HT or Luch if things go very well and you have extra fuel.


Well volks spam will never go away unless A) support teams are buff to where they're all useful without being required cheese, or B) map changes so sturms can be built as opposed to volks. It's part of the reason why shocks are bad. A gren squad can pick away at shocks as they charge, then retreat and lose maybe 1 model, while the shocks are guranteed to lose at least 1. Furthermore the grens will gain vet while the shocks barely any.

Long range squads > CQC squads.

That's correct about wiping potential, but the stuka still is not viable as a 1st armor piece as opposed to a tank. A panzer 4 can defend itself AND have the potential to wipe, as opposed to the stuka only being able to wipe.

We had more variance as OKW before DBP took a massive nerf bat to them. Volks were nerfed, the panther was still useless, KT made into a 60 ton shopping cart, luchs then overnerfed. People wonder why 4 volks into flaktrack become meta into p4 and shocklingly enough, the flaktrack got a great buff as well as the p4 while everything else was still too bad to use. In order to get diversity units have to be worth building. Same deal with old pack howi.
30 May 2018, 17:10 PM
#85
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3478 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 May 2018, 14:52 PMzarok47


Some posts back I already said okw flamenade can be changed to flamers on pio's or maybe only be thrown on garrisons, so I agree it is a problem atm (and not just vs UKF).

I would also say UKF is, was and always will be a shitshow to balance so I would focus on the other 4 factions.



Allright , thanks for "missing out" on all the reasons rushing stuka is suicide in 1vs1. I also expect your thread about why USF can lose acces to mortar today, since it's cheaper to get pack howi then it is to get stuka (I already prepared your post for that).

Or is your 1200 games as USF 1vs1 vs 3 okw games a sign of factional bias projected unto me?

Your call buddy.


Yep you are bias, I already opened such a topic where I stated USF mortar didn't bring shit (while I assume I posted it before the last patch), then I always prefered riflesmoke to the mortar as the mortar doesn't counter multiple hmgs. Please also note that while USF gain a mortar they lost those smoke from riflemen. What OKW did lost when the ISG gained garrison cleaning tools again?

Then since you don't read the topic, I already gave my opinion on the solution I feel more viable:
Move the flamnade to SP or put it behind a paywall.

What you picked-up from my comment was about someone complaining that IF the flamnade was to be removed (not my proposal) then it would lock OKW T2 out of any heavily garrisoned map because there is NO garrison cleaner in that tier.
To which I replied there is actually the best garrison cleaner in the game in that tier. Too bad it cost fuel but still, maybe in 1vs1 that's usually not your first call, that's a complete different story in teamgame.
Then you came and blablabla...
30 May 2018, 17:17 PM
#86
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

OKW didn't lose anything when the leg was buffed because it was always a part of their roster. Can you remind me where th mortar came from? There's a huge HUGE difference in having a unit buffed to fill its role and a unit added to add diversity
30 May 2018, 17:35 PM
#87
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3478 | Subs: 1

OKW didn't lose anything when the leg was buffed because it was always a part of their roster. Can you remind me where th mortar came from? There's a huge HUGE difference in having a unit buffed to fill its role and a unit added to add diversity


Good point, and about OKW smoke and incendiary barrage coming from nowhere?
30 May 2018, 17:53 PM
#88
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885


Oh boy ... investing 120 fuel+ till you can clear garrisions


You can clear garrisons with sturmpio just fine. Without investing a snigle penny. In some cases you might need smoke. That one is supplied by leig. That is all you need to clear garrisons.

On the other hand, if you wish to wipe units in garrisons, then you might need a stuka. That is why it requires some investment.

#smokeandflank /thread
30 May 2018, 18:17 PM
#89
avatar of Euan

Posts: 158

I don't normally agree with random crazy ideas on here but in the shower today I was thinking, it actually really makes a lot of sense to swap the standard Volks upgrades with the flame doc upgrades at this stage.

In other words, give Volks the chance to upgrade to MP40 / Model24 / Smoke as standard, and in flame doc they could get StG / flame nade.

  • More tactical play in general (choose between long or short range firepower per squad)
  • Volks blob play with boring "all ranges" StG upgrade becomes less viable
  • Model 24 still useful against MG garrisons (and since building entry/exit is slower now, a little for normal squads too)
  • Smoke nades can also reduce effect of enemy garrisons in early game
  • For T2, LeIG and Luchs have already been buffed a little for extra garrison cleaning
  • Flame nade actually makes sense in flame doctrine (and adds something nice to a rather shitty doc)


There has been a fuss over flame nade and its timing for so long, because while an interesting idea, having an army that denies the use of cover to the opponent from early game kind of goes against the basic philosophy of CoH.

With the 45muni assault upgrade, there's the ability for a range of fun tactical plays as OKW that gets gradually unlocked, rather than the instant "win button" flame names (I'm exaggerating a bit there but hey). It's a big change but such changes have been done a lot recently so why not.
30 May 2018, 18:20 PM
#90
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4127 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post30 May 2018, 18:17 PMEuan
I don't normally agree with random crazy ideas on here but in the shower today I was thinking, it actually really makes a lot of sense to swap the standard Volks upgrades with the flame doc upgrades at this stage.

In other words, give Volks the chance to upgrade to MP40 / Model24 / Smoke as standard, and in flame doc they could get StG / flame nade.

  • More tactical play in general (choose between long or short range firepower per squad)
  • Volks blob play with boring "all ranges" StG upgrade becomes less viable
  • Model 24 still useful against MG garrisons (and since building entry/exit is slower now, a little for normal squads too)
  • Smoke nades can also reduce effect of enemy garrisons in early game
  • For T2, LeIG and Luchs have already been buffed a little for extra garrison cleaning
  • Flame nade actually makes sense in flame doctrine (and adds something nice to a rather shitty doc)


There has been a fuss over flame nade and its timing for so long, because while an interesting idea, having an army that denies the use of cover to the opponent from early game kind of goes against the basic philosophy of CoH.

With the 45muni assault upgrade, there's the ability for a range of fun tactical plays as OKW that gets gradually unlocked, rather than the instant "win button" flame names (I'm exaggerating a bit there but hey). It's a big change but such changes have been done a lot recently so why not.


So give OKW volks MP40 upgrades instead of StGs, making volks upgrades overlap with Sturms from the get go, and make them falloff lategame EVEN MORE?
30 May 2018, 18:33 PM
#91
avatar of Euan

Posts: 158



So give OKW volks MP40 upgrades instead of StGs, making volks upgrades overlap with Sturms from the get go, and make them falloff lategame EVEN MORE?


Well, that's true but the idea would be that it's more like a sidegrade than an upgrade. A smart player would always leave some squads with rifles to preserve long-range firepower to mix in with the close range. Volks aren't supposed to be much more in the late game than damage sponges and grenade throwers anyway, while obers / falls / pfusils or whatever deal out the damage.
30 May 2018, 18:35 PM
#92
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



You can clear garrisons with sturmpio just fine. Without investing a snigle penny. In some cases you might need smoke. That one is supplied by leig. That is all you need to clear garrisons.

On the other hand, if you wish to wipe units in garrisons, then you might need a stuka. That is why it requires some investment.

#smokeandflank /thread

Sturmpioneers will lose their first model on the way to the garrison and then there are still 6 Conscripts,5 Rifles or 4 ISs in there and against MGs they will need Somke support by Leig (or flank them but this not always possible).Meanwhile SU/OST can just use Flamethrowers,USF can use its T0 Mortar and UKF just can use IS since they perform better than a garrisoned Grens squad if they are in cover or Universalcerrier but OKW needs either to invest 160 fuel for Stuka or go T1.So OKW will basically be forced to go T1 if the enemy has more than 1 Garrison while every other fraction still can choose which way they want to go.

it's ur choice, do u want eraly light vehicle and light at but expensive and wipy garrison clear or do u want cheap indirect and anti garrison with mobile suppression platform but later light vehicle or none ? as along as they give a decent granade all its ok (but i do belive that even if they copy paste mill bombs people are gonna say" no way why do okw have THE BEST granade of all faction that are like nukes and they get it FREE !!!!1111!!!11")

The Thing is : If they remove Flamenade then it isn't my choice anymore.Either I go T1 to get LeIG (but as a exchange get Overroled by AEC or Infantry (in my opinion the Sdkfz 251 isn't worth it anymor but that's another story)) or I go T2 to counter infantry and Light tanks ... that means if I have the fuel for it ... because the enemy blocked both fuelpoints with Garrisons and OKW has no fuelcachees .So the game takes away the choice by forcing me to go T1
30 May 2018, 18:56 PM
#93
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885


Sturmpioneers will lose their first model on the way to the garrison and then there are still 6 Conscripts,5 Rifles or 4 ISs in there and against MGs they will need Somke support by Leig (or flank them but this not always possible).Meanwhile SU/OST can just use Flamethrowers,USF can use its T0 Mortar and UKF just can use IS since they perform better than a garrisoned Grens squad if they are in cover or Universalcerrier but OKW needs either to invest 160 fuel for Stuka or go T1.So OKW will basically be forced to go T1 if the enemy has more than 1 Garrison while every other fraction still can choose which way they want to go.


Just like IS, every other baseline infantry squad wins against garrisoned infantry squads when in green cover at a range close to optimal (but over 10!). There is nothing that would make IS better at this job than volksgrenadier.

Forcing T1 is bullshit, p2 deals with mgs in buildings just fine. Other infantry squads can be taken down by your infantry.

Sturmpio doesn't have to lose a model. Just lead your attack with kubel or volk. You can also flank better. When getting at close range with a building it is important to choose the site that has low window count. If you choose the correct site and approach path then you can force a squad out of the building with ease. Mind that bigger squads are at disadvantage when fighting from building becouse they usually deal less damage per model, so limited window count makes their dps even worse than in case of smaller squads. That is why an example with conscript makes no sense at all.
30 May 2018, 21:12 PM
#94
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7


Sturmpio doesn't have to lose a model. Just lead your attack with kubel or volk. You can also flank better. When getting at close range with a building it is important to choose the site that has low window count. If you choose the correct site and approach path then you can force a squad out of the building with ease. .


Gosh it's so easy to come up with utopian situations to nullify decent arguments. Let's hear it for OKW now. Did you know you can easily dodge flame grenades vs cover by moving to other cover? You can also easily avoid them by moving out of garrison. Ta-da. No reason to get rid of flame grenades because you can dodge them with ease.
30 May 2018, 22:36 PM
#95
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post30 May 2018, 17:35 PMEsxile


Good point, and about OKW smoke and incendiary barrage coming from nowhere?

Smoke is a necessity so much so that the usf were given a whole new unit specifically to give them the flexibility to have it without spending fuel. One of the cruxes of brit design is how hard it is to get fuel.
The leig getting smoke was a long time coming and a design fail not having it to begin with. And regardless it very much falls under buffing an underperfoming unit which is different than adding a new one. And flame barrage is a doctrinal ability so idk where you are going with that...
31 May 2018, 07:53 AM
#96
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 587

jump backJump back to quoted post30 May 2018, 17:10 PMEsxile


Yep you are bias, I already opened such a topic where I stated USF mortar didn't bring shit (while I assume I posted it before the last patch), then I always prefered riflesmoke to the mortar as the mortar doesn't counter multiple hmgs. Please also note that while USF gain a mortar they lost those smoke from riflemen. What OKW did lost when the ISG gained garrison cleaning tools again?


By your own logic, smoke should stay away from rifle's. Because an OkW without flamenade has no smoke to fight garrisons in T0.

But the issue you seem to purposely miss is that a OkW or USF (and UKF right now) without cheap T0 garrison counters are complete and utterly boned on garrison maps.

Calling the stuka the best garrison counter in the game, 'but too bad it costs fuel" is the equavalent of claiming shocks in an m3 are a valid counter to agrens. It shows a complete lack of gamesense if you think dumping 160 fuel into rushing arty unit in a 1vs1 won't utterly destroy you.

But I know, why don't you show me how to do it? Post a replay of you using the best garrison counter in the game in a 1vs1 vs an equally strong enemy and manage to win, and I will admit I am utterly wrong.
It would also bring down your OKW to USF 1vs1 game ratio from 1:400 to 1:300.

jump backJump back to quoted post30 May 2018, 17:10 PMEsxile

Then since you don't read the topic, I already gave my opinion on the solution I feel more viable:
Move the flamnade to SP or put it behind a paywall.


Putting okw nades behind a paywall will bring issue's of it's own (which I stated before, but you seem to miss that out aswell). But i can get behind flamers on sturms.

jump backJump back to quoted post30 May 2018, 17:10 PMEsxile

What you picked-up from my comment was about someone complaining that IF the flamnade was to be removed (not my proposal) then it would lock OKW T2 out of any heavily garrisoned map because there is NO garrison cleaner in that tier.
To which I replied there is actually the best garrison cleaner in the game in that tier. Too bad it cost fuel but still, maybe in 1vs1 that's usually not your first call, that's a complete different story in teamgame.
Then you came and blablabla...


jump backJump back to quoted post30 May 2018, 07:28 AMEsxile


What matters in 1vs1 is the wiping potential of your army and capping territory: Armor doesn't cap points.
You have racketen and Puma to counter medium armor as well.


You specificly referenced a 1vs1 scenario where one has to get stuka to counter garrisons. Teamgames is another can of worms, but you are wrong about stuka being a viable garrison clearer in a 1vs1 setting.

But instead of admitting that, you first beat around the bushes for 3 post, ignore any argument about why stuka is not a viable garrison counter in 1's and then turn around and call me biased.

It always surpises me how people with a playercard such as yours are the first to do that.

Looking forward to that replay.
31 May 2018, 09:22 AM
#97
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3478 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 May 2018, 07:53 AMzarok47


By your own logic, smoke should stay away from rifle's. Because an OkW without flamenade has no smoke to fight garrisons in T0.

But the issue you seem to purposely miss is that a OkW or USF (and UKF right now) without cheap T0 garrison counters are complete and utterly boned on garrison maps.

Calling the stuka the best garrison counter in the game, 'but too bad it costs fuel" is the equavalent of claiming shocks in an m3 are a valid counter to agrens. It shows a complete lack of gamesense if you think dumping 160 fuel into rushing arty unit in a 1vs1 won't utterly destroy you.

But I know, why don't you show me how to do it? Post a replay of you using the best garrison counter in the game in a 1vs1 vs an equally strong enemy and manage to win, and I will admit I am utterly wrong.
It would also bring down your OKW to USF 1vs1 game ratio from 1:400 to 1:300.



Putting okw nades behind a paywall will bring issue's of it's own (which I stated before, but you seem to miss that out aswell). But i can get behind flamers on sturms.





You specificly referenced a 1vs1 scenario where one has to get stuka to counter garrisons. Teamgames is another can of worms, but you are wrong about stuka being a viable garrison clearer in a 1vs1 setting.

But instead of admitting that, you first beat around the bushes for 3 post, ignore any argument about why stuka is not a viable garrison counter in 1's and then turn around and call me biased.

It always surpises me how people with a playercard such as yours are the first to do that.

Looking forward to that replay.


Back then, riflesmoke costed 25 fuel, nothing really T0 out of the box when the game start.

OKW has garrison counter with the ISG at the moment. And putting flamnade behind a paywall isn't equal to remove it from the game, UKF also has to pay extra fuel to get their garrison counter.
We could also argument that OKW is the strongest starting faction: you can clean, occupy and hold any house you want with your starting SP except vs UKF. Not to mention if OKW isn't that great in garrison cleaning that early the faction is king of the open field and capping with the fast capping kubel and volks being able to build their own cover.

I don't understand your focus on what I said on the Stuka, do you disagree with Stuka being best Garrison counter? Doesn't stuka wipe majority of wooden buildings in one barrage? Doesn't Stuka ensure you to hit the area you selected? How many stuka Barrage does it takes to take down the strongest garrison building vs other rocket arty?
Now it cost fuel, better have to. Let's just me remember you one more time the argument I had and you can't deny: OKW T2 has a garrison cleaner tool in it. The same way USF has a garrison cleaner tool in its T2 which I will never deny.

Next, I don't really give a damn to provide you a replay on a faction I don't like to play, I'm not telling you how to play your faction, I'm telling you there is a garrison cleaning tool in your T2. You tell me it is not viable to use it in 1vs1, very well I understand that, then go T1 when there are many garrisons on the map and use T2 first on open map, or ban heavy garrisoned map from your selection. It is not like COH2 is a game about strategy and adaptation, if Luch rush doesn't work on urban map then adapt, I think OKW T1 is still good after the patch to be used in such maps.

Now I'm looking back into the topic to find your point against putting flamnade behind a paywall. find it, not really convinced but I think I'll stop here.
31 May 2018, 09:36 AM
#98
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 587

jump backJump back to quoted post31 May 2018, 09:22 AMEsxile


Back then, riflesmoke costed 25 fuel, nothing really T0 out of the box when the game start.

OKW has garrison counter with the ISG at the moment. And putting flamnade behind a paywall isn't equal to remove it from the game, UKF also has to pay extra fuel to get their garrison counter.
We could also argument that OKW is the strongest starting faction: you can clean, occupy and hold any house you want with your starting SP except vs UKF. Not to mention if OKW isn't that great in garrison cleaning that early the faction is king of the open field and capping with the fast capping kubel and volks being able to build their own cover.

I don't understand your focus on what I said on the Stuka, do you disagree with Stuka being best Garrison counter? Doesn't stuka wipe majority of wooden buildings in one barrage? Doesn't Stuka ensure you to hit the area you selected? How many stuka Barrage does it takes to take down the strongest garrison building vs other rocket arty?
Now it cost fuel, better have to. Let's just me remember you one more time the argument I had and you can't deny: OKW T2 has a garrison cleaner tool in it. The same way USF has a garrison cleaner tool in its T2 which I will never deny.

Next, I don't really give a damn to provide you a replay on a faction I don't like to play, I'm not telling you how to play your faction, I'm telling you there is a garrison cleaning tool in your T2. You tell me it is not viable to use it in 1vs1, very well I understand that, then go T1 when there are many garrisons on the map and use T2 first on open map, or ban heavy garrisoned map from your selection. It is not like COH2 is a game about strategy and adaptation, if Luch rush doesn't work on urban map then adapt, I think OKW T1 is still good after the patch to be used in such maps.

Now I'm looking back into the topic to find your point against putting flamnade behind a paywall.


The argument, when focused down on actually removing okw flamenade from the game (never said putting it behind a pay-wall equals that) is that it would force okw into t1 on every garrison map in a 1vs1 scenario, thus removing strategy from okw.

At this point,you said T2 has a garrison clearer in the form of the stuka.
I never deny it's decent at that. I deny that getting a stuka to clear garrisons in 1vs1 is a way of making okw t2 viable on garrison maps. It is not due to various reasons stated earlier, and as such, removing nades enterily would limit strategy and dump okw in t1 on said maps which is bad.

OkW needs an early garrison tool, which is releativly cheap and accesable in T0 Like every other faction should have. Flamenades are a bad answer to that demand, but removing them without giving something else in T0, is equally bad, if not worse.

That is the essence of my problem with your claim "okw has a garrison counter in t2".
31 May 2018, 09:39 AM
#99
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post31 May 2018, 09:22 AMEsxile


Back then, riflesmoke costed 25 fuel, nothing really T0 out of the box when the game start.

OKW has garrison counter with the ISG at the moment. And putting flamnade behind a paywall isn't equal to remove it from the game, UKF also has to pay extra fuel to get their garrison counter.
We could also argument that OKW is the strongest starting faction: you can clean, occupy and hold any house you want with your starting SP except vs UKF. Not to mention if OKW isn't that great in garrison cleaning that early the faction is king of the open field and capping with the fast capping kubel and volks being able to build their own cover.

I don't understand your focus on what I said on the Stuka, do you disagree with Stuka being best Garrison counter? Doesn't stuka wipe majority of wooden buildings in one barrage? Doesn't Stuka ensure you to hit the area you selected? How many stuka Barrage does it takes to take down the strongest garrison building vs other rocket arty?
Now it cost fuel, better have to. Let's just me remember you one more time the argument I had and you can't deny: OKW T2 has a garrison cleaner tool in it. The same way USF has a garrison cleaner tool in its T2 which I will never deny.

Next, I don't really give a damn to provide you a replay on a faction I don't like to play, I'm not telling you how to play your faction, I'm telling you there is a garrison cleaning tool in your T2. You tell me it is not viable to use it in 1vs1, very well I understand that, then go T1 when there are many garrisons on the map and use T2 first on open map, or ban heavy garrisoned map from your selection. It is not like COH2 is a game about strategy and adaptation, if Luch rush doesn't work on urban map then adapt, I think OKW T1 is still good after the patch to be used in such maps.

Now I'm looking back into the topic to find your point against putting flamnade behind a paywall. find it, not really convinced but I think I'll stop here.
wasp cost fuel now ?
31 May 2018, 09:45 AM
#100
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

wasp cost fuel now ?

Not wasp, regular UC.
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