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russian armor

Is the Black Prince supposed to be some kind of easter egg?

15 Jul 2021, 15:39 PM
#81
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 15:12 PMHarry


Oh boy, another one who thinks they just learned a history lesson after playing a video game.


And another baseless claim by you

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 15:12 PMHarry


Also, you just argue somebody else using Wiki as a source.


Have you ever noticed those tiny little things called "footnotes" on Wikipedia? If any article has no sources then I won't use it (your linked Tank archives article has no sources for most parts either btw.). If it has then I don't see how it would be bad simply because "Wikipedia"

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 15:12 PMHarry

Here is a great article about T-150 (or object 150)
http://www.tankarchives.ca/2013/04/prototype-kvs.html


Ah yes. Tankarchives. The guy who claimed that Soviets only lost 1.15 times as much men as the axis.

Also even his article states that T-150 refers to the very first KV 3 prototype that was built ... and that it was lost at Leningrad.

So your own sources speak against you: No T-150s as there only was one and also no T 150 at Smolensk. Also the article makes it look like the T-150 was the only KV-3 ever built so no "KV-3s" either ... or rather no Kv 3s at all








jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 15:12 PMHarry


Also, see the picture below. M-75 can penetrate 188 mm armor at 1000 meters. The one you mentioned is M-42, it is another 107mm gun, which has a shorter barrel.



Still less than Pak 44s 210 mms at 1000 meters at 30 ° though. Also (according to another Tankarchives Article) the M-75 did not even pass trial stage:

"Since the experience of modern war did not confirm the need for such guns to fight tanks, further work on the M-75 gun and its ammunition is considered unreasonable. Reporting on the above, I ask for your permission to cease all work on the 107 mm M-75 gun"


jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 15:12 PMHarry


Go out and start another post complaining about Ostwind being in the OST faction in COH2.


You may not have noticed this but development of CoH2 is already done while CoH3s isn't. Also Ostwind was at least used at the eastern front unlike Black Prince
15 Jul 2021, 15:42 PM
#82
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 15:25 PMHarry

You would be able to see IS-4, 5, or even 6 if the Germans were marching in the Soviet territory in 1945.


But they weren't
15 Jul 2021, 15:45 PM
#83
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1936 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 15:30 PMHarry


And you cant call any phototype not a phototype because they saw very limited action in the front.

This is a game, after all, not a historical documentary. If you would rather see a true reflection of history, made the Tiger have a 70% chance to have a sudden engine break down then.
Also, make ISU-152 able to one-shot everything.


You are confusing warm with soft. Company of Heroes is a true historical game? No, this is a game based on WWII, was the Black Prince part of WWII? Not. There were no units in the game that did not participate in the war. If Company of Heroes were World of Tanks, you will get a ton of paper tanks. If you want the Black Prince in the game, please take Operation Unthinkable, it will be everything that has already happened in the war and a ton of all sorts of delicious tanks: ARL-44, BP, Centurion, IS-3, T-44, ZSU-37, etc. And everyone will be happy.
15 Jul 2021, 15:55 PM
#84
avatar of Harry

Posts: 158

Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger and Ostwind werent "prototypes".
A prototype is a test bed for a new weapon type.
The Sturmtiger was a planned vehicle for the urban combat.
It was produced in limited numbers because it was a so called "Schwerpunktwaffe" (weapon for special combat situations). The "Schwerpunktwaffen" were often build in smaller numbers because the german High command thought were only used not often and only by special circumstances.
The Ostwind was part of the Flakpanzer program of the Wehrmacht.
The Ostwind on PzIV was a regular concept. The low numbers were the result of the fact that the army had ordered small numbers and only a small number of factories were ordered to build it.
The Flakpanzer III Ostwind was a prototype ;) At the end of the war a small batch of Flakpanzer III were build. It was ordered by the Artillery arm to defend the StuG units against air attacks. So the Pz III was chooses for spare part reasons.
The Jagdtiger was a "Schwerpunktwaffe" too and was planed to be build in small numbers. The self propelled gun should be assigned to special tasks so the army ordered small numbers because they wont need large numbers of the specialized Jagdtiger.

So basing from my point of view none of the 3 tanks were a "prototype" at all.

My2cents


Fair call, but so did the other Allies' phototypes. Or I should say, a lot of the things were also planned by the allies but never were built in the end because most of them were dropped during trials. Since I am not an expert on UK or US tanks, please don't quote me on that. But for the Soviets, there was a program in late 1939 and 1940 to create new replacements for all the categories of tanks in the army. KV was one of them, and a lot of the phototypes, despite not being given a name at the beginning, were all sent to the front and fought the battle. They were in the end classified as KV-1 in the end.
15 Jul 2021, 15:58 PM
#85
avatar of Harry

Posts: 158



You are confusing warm with soft. Company of Heroes is a true historical game? No, this is a game based on WWII, was the Black Prince part of WWII? Not. There were no units in the game that did not participate in the war. If Company of Heroes were World of Tanks, you will get a ton of paper tanks. If you want the Black Prince in the game, please take Operation Unthinkable, it will be everything that has already happened in the war and a ton of all sorts of delicious tanks: ARL-44, BP, Centurion, IS-3, T-44, ZSU-37, etc. And everyone will be happy.


True, but I don't against seeing paper tanks, as long as they are properly balanced. Black Prince was designed in WWII, so IMO, it is part of WWII.
15 Jul 2021, 16:04 PM
#86
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1936 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 15:58 PMHarry


True, but I don't against seeing paper tanks, as long as they are properly balanced. Black Prince was designed in WWII, so IMO, it is part of WWII.


Unfortunately not, I really wanted to see the T-44 on the battlefield, because it was a magnificent and revolutionary tank for that time that could protect against 88 guns. But no, they were only produced in hundreds of pieces.
15 Jul 2021, 16:14 PM
#87
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 498

I'm sorry but the German factions in the COH series have benefited from wacky, hardly, if ever used successfully units/weapons that when this came up as an issue I was a bit surprised.

Vampire halftracks didn't disrupt the allied supply train
the Luftwaffe did not drop fuel to the screwed Falaise pocket
SturmTigers didn't destroy swaths of allied vehicles
German infantry didn't make use of infrared searchlights

But now that an allied unit might make that stretch WOAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!! ALLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRM! comical.

The Devs are doing what they did to fill out all the factions from COH1 and COH@, putting in those Wacky, if ever used successfully units/weapons for fun, as this is a game not history lesson.
15 Jul 2021, 16:14 PM
#88
avatar of LordRommel
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 269 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 15:55 PMHarry


Fair call, but so did the other Allies' phototypes. Or I should say, a lot of the things were also planned by the allies but never were built in the end because most of them were dropped during trials. Since I am not an expert on UK or US tanks, please don't quote me on that. But for the Soviets, there was a program in late 1939 and 1940 to create new replacements for all the categories of tanks in the army. KV was one of them, and a lot of the phototypes, despite not being given a name at the beginning, were all sent to the front and fought the battle. They were in the end classified as KV-1 in the end.


I'm no allied armor expert. I know a lot of stuff about the german armor so i cant judge allied armor here.
But from my point of view the Black Prince is a prototype because as far as i know no serial run preparations were dont and there were no plans for frontline shipment (e.g. Pershing was in full swing and was send to the front in numbers but before more Pershings could arrive the german army capitulated.),
I think the Black Prince was still on the proving ground when the war ended.

Compared to the "prototype tank" i would welcome tanks like the Comet or the "italian Churchill" (Churchill 75NA) or Challenger A30. Those tanks should be good enough to fight a Tiger tank ;)
15 Jul 2021, 16:25 PM
#89
avatar of Harry

Posts: 158



And another baseless claim by you



Have you ever noticed those tiny little things called "footnotes" on Wikipedia? If any article has no sources then I won't use it (your linked Tank archives article has no sources for most parts either btw.). If it has then I don't see how it would be bad simply because "Wikipedia"



Ah yes. Tankarchives. The guy who claimed that Soviets only lost 1.15 times as much men as the axis.

Also even his article states that T-150 refers to the very first KV 3 prototype that was built ... and that it was lost at Leningrad.

So your own sources speak against you: No T-150s as there only was one and also no T 150 at Smolensk. Also the article makes it look like the T-150 was the only KV-3 ever built so no "KV-3s" either ... or rather no Kv 3s at all










Still less than Pak 44s 210 mms at 1000 meters at 30 ° though. Also (according to another Tankarchives Article) the M-75 did not even pass trial stage:

"Since the experience of modern war did not confirm the need for such guns to fight tanks, further work on the M-75 gun and its ammunition is considered unreasonable. Reporting on the above, I ask for your permission to cease all work on the 107 mm M-75 gun"




You may not have noticed this but development of CoH2 is already done while CoH3s isn't. Also Ostwind was at least used at the eastern front unlike Black Prince



Last post by me.

Sorry, I misread your post, I thought you sourced from World Of Tanks.

Footnotes are great sources; I used them as well. But what you said was, "According to Wikipedia." Next time stay clear of the source then.

According to a book written by John D Salt(if not somebody else, I have the book with me but in another language, I can't see it anymore online now) , the penetration of Pak44 at 1000 meters ( trail done by the Soviets in 1945) was around 180~185mm. When comparing all these data, it is always better to compare trials data done by the same country since they usually are base on the same control environment. They did officially dropped M-75 due to poor ammo performance, but, just like so many other trails guns, it was sent to the front in very few numbers regardless.

Yeah, I should clarify this. Yes, the only T-150(which is not the Kv-3 we know), which was called T-150, was, in fact, in Leningrad. There are also T-150s built but later called as Kv-1 served in the Smolensk. T-223 ( which was the Kv-3 we knew ) was also severed in Leningrad with a Kv-1 torrent equipped, though. I have read some sources about some Kv-4 phototypes equipped with Kv-1 torrent also served in Leningrad, if not Smolensk.

Now here is the thing, you always take all sources with a grain of salt. So I did with tank archives. But, not as you said, many of its articles do have a direct link to another Russian sources article, and many of those articles could be directly traced back to an original Russian archive. Not just because he claimed the german tanks were bad, it then make me think german tanks were bad.

Also, if I was not mistaken, OST was supposed to portrait 1943 german Wehrmacht. Ostwind was not even a thing back then.
15 Jul 2021, 16:25 PM
#90
avatar of Beinhard

Posts: 161

You guys still can't grasp the concept of CoH2 being a WW2-themed RTS? Not an historical accurate representation of WW2?

Go search for the E-100 turret mr. matrix I'm sure you will find it eventually.
15 Jul 2021, 16:32 PM
#91
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



Vampire halftracks didn't disrupt the allied supply train
the Luftwaffe did not drop fuel to the screwed Falaise pocket
SturmTigers didn't destroy swaths of allied vehicles
German infantry didn't make use of infrared searchlights

But now that an allied unit might make that stretch WOAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!! ALLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRM! comical.



Sdkfz 250 was used, it being able to disrupt supply line is a gameplay choice, Luftwaffe dropping supply is (if it really did not happen) ahistorical and should be avoided, Sturmtiger was used and did also destroy some Tanks, Night Vision / Infra Red was used

Black Prince was not used.

How is this so hard to get?
15 Jul 2021, 16:36 PM
#92
avatar of Beinhard

Posts: 161



Sdkfz 250 was used, it being able to disrupt supply line is a gameplay choice, Luftwaffe dropping supply is (if it really did not happen) ahistorical and should be avoided, Sturmtiger was used and did also destroy some Tanks, Night Vision / Infra Red was used

Black Prince was not used.

How is this so hard to get?


Let me re-phrase that:

How hard is it for, you Wehraboos, to understand the conecept that CoH is not an historical accurate representation of WW2?

Go search for that E-100 turret on the Steam Forums. You might have some luck there :brad:
15 Jul 2021, 16:37 PM
#93
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 16:25 PMHarry

Sorry, I misread your post, I thought you sourced from World Of Tanks.


Oh ok.

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 16:25 PMHarry

Footnotes are great sources; I used them as well. But what you said was, "According to Wikipedia." Next time stay clear of the source then.

Fair enough


jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 16:25 PMHarry

Also, if I was not mistaken, OST was supposed to portrait 1943 german Wehrmacht. Ostwind was not even a thing back then.


I think originally it was supposed to be this way but there was no Panzerschreck in 1943 either and since the also is the IS 2 Version 44 (or whatever it is called) on the Soviet Side I assumed that it is supposed to be 1943 to 1945
15 Jul 2021, 16:38 PM
#94
avatar of Harry

Posts: 158



I'm no allied armor expert. I know a lot of stuff about the german armor so i cant judge allied armor here.
But from my point of view the Black Prince is a prototype because as far as i know no serial run preparations were dont and there were no plans for frontline shipment (e.g. Pershing was in full swing and was send to the front in numbers but before more Pershings could arrive the german army capitulated.),
I think the Black Prince was still on the proving ground when the war ended.

Compared to the "prototype tank" i would welcome tanks like the Comet or the "italian Churchill" (Churchill 75NA) or Challenger A30. Those tanks should be good enough to fight a Tiger tank ;)


Good post, Yeah, BP was even still in proving ground in 1946.
I just personally don't against any phototypes in the game. For some degree, even greatly welcoming them.
15 Jul 2021, 16:39 PM
#95
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518


you Wehraboos


That moment when one gets called a Wehraboo for simply wanting WW2 tanks in a WW2 game (I pointed out numerous times that I do neither want E-100 nor Maus in game either)



Big Brain time
15 Jul 2021, 17:56 PM
#97
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1200

Let's summarize it like this:

North African Campaign and Italy. Finally a setting that is not about the last year of the war.

Potential: Panzer IIs, IIIs and IVs versus Cruiser tanks, Grants and Shermans.

What we get: The same German tanks versus post war moon cars that never left prototype stage.


15 Jul 2021, 20:27 PM
#98
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 705



M24 Chaffee of the 81st Reconnaissance Squadron, 1st Armored Division passes through ruins of Vergato (Bologna, Italy) on 14 april 1945

Ok, IMO in terms of PvP, they can add whatever. In terms of 1943 campaign, that lasted few months at best, adding late war units and armament with sprinkle of prototypes is debatable. Just few cents.
Pip
15 Jul 2021, 20:47 PM
#99
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1579

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 16:38 PMHarry

I just personally don't against any phototypes in the game.


Please stop using the word "Phototype". You mean "Prototype". A Phototype is something else entirely.
15 Jul 2021, 21:15 PM
#100
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 474 | Subs: 1

Coh2 has always been an arcade game, i don't see why we're getting hung up on it, but not the chaffe for example. (Though personally I wouldn't care if it was gone, I'm guessing they added it to give a rival heavy for bongs)
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