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Is the Black Prince supposed to be some kind of easter egg?

15 Jul 2021, 11:00 AM
#61
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

Making the Black Prince was a nonsensical choice. COH has fictional stats, they could have taken the Comet or the normal Churchill and give it the stats they want
15 Jul 2021, 11:59 AM
#62
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1200

The thing that somewhat disappoints me is that the setting is new and has potential yet it seems we are getting a recycled Coh2 with late war/post war stuff.

I can only speak for myself but looking at the Panzer III threads we had, I feel a lot of players really want some mid war units and not you standard big tank stuff.

Archer tank destroyer, Chaffee, StG 44s all dont belong into 1943 Italy. I can accept those as in multiplayer you can still think it is somewhat authentic. The Black Prince however takes this a step further and includes a unit that has nothing to do with the entire war.
15 Jul 2021, 12:42 PM
#63
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 797

Speaking of end war tanks, will we also be seeing the Tortoise as well? Had to be asked.
15 Jul 2021, 12:50 PM
#64
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 704



And it was also used in Italy.

no offence, but please provide proofs of that. AFAIK Italy campaign ended with complete withdrawal of German forces in October 1943, while first Chaffee tanks were shipped a year later. Yes it is a real tank, but still it does not fit particular timeframe, which I'm completely OK with that.

Personally I'd rather see Comet then Black Prince, but if Relic thinks that it fits the faction, then be it.
15 Jul 2021, 12:54 PM
#65
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17581 | Subs: 8



Personally I'd rather see Comet then Black Prince, but if Relic thinks that it fits the faction, then be it.

When given a choice, I would always go for new units rather then old one.

Its bland enough already how everything US is always shermans and everything wehr is always P4-6, if other factions can be improved by variations, I'm all for it, CoH2 soviet campaign was pure fantasy and stereotypes and nothing was wrong there, nothing will be wrong here either.
15 Jul 2021, 13:00 PM
#66
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1936 | Subs: 2


no offence, but please provide proofs of that. AFAIK Italy campaign ended with complete withdrawal of German forces in October 1943, while first Chaffee tanks were shipped a year later. Yes it is a real tank, but still it does not fit particular timeframe, which I'm completely OK with that.

Personally I'd rather see Comet then Black Prince, but if Relic thinks that it fits the faction, then be it.


M24 Chaffee of the 81st Reconnaissance Squadron, 1st Armored Division passes through ruins of Vergato (Bologna, Italy) on 14 april 1945
15 Jul 2021, 13:04 PM
#67
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 704



M24 Chaffee of the 81st Reconnaissance Squadron, 1st Armored Division passes through ruins of Vergato (Bologna, Italy) on 14 april 1945

ok, my bad
15 Jul 2021, 13:11 PM
#68
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 12:54 PMKatitof

When given a choice, I would always go for new units rather then old one.

Its bland enough already how everything US is always shermans and everything wehr is always P4-6, if other factions can be improved by variations, I'm all for it


There are plenty of other vehicles that could be used ... but simply using a tank that was never used and calling it a day is easier I guess. Just look at the Wirbelwind. They could have used the Mobelwagen (as Crecer13 pointed out) but apparently getting "new units" is only important when it allows for stuff to be used that was never used


jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 12:54 PMKatitof

CoH2 soviet campaign was pure fantasy and stereotypes and nothing was wrong there, nothing will be wrong here either.


Ah yes. The campaign of the last game had historical inaccuracies (that people complained about a lot) so let's just throw historical accuracy completely out of the window instead of improving the situation ...

like I and others said: If Black prince is in game then why not add Maus?
15 Jul 2021, 14:26 PM
#69
avatar of Harry

Posts: 158

Someone who has a uncle that works at lelic please tell me so. Would be a shame if CoH3 would feature tanks that weren't even used in WW2


Hey man, the fact that you mentioned way more german phototypes than the allies' just clearly indicated you won't even ever start a post like this if there was Maus added into the game rather than the Black Prince. Now hear this out, since no one mentioned the Russian vehicles, which I suspect will possibly add to the game later as DLC, the Soviets also have sent out a lot of experimental tanks desperately during the early stage of war in very small numbers. Su-100-Y fought in the Battle of Smolensk, so did a few T-150s, Kv-3s, and, according to some official archives, one Kv-4. Su-100-Y was the only one who survived the battle and served in a few minor roles later in Moscow(which make it on paper serve longer than the JT). Also, during that battle, if not earlier, few M-75 107mm heavy AT guns were sent to the battle for a somewhat last-ditch reason. If you do not know the gun, which I think you don't, it is the Soviet version Pak44(not the 43/41) but instead built in 1940. Besides, T-100 and SMK also saw service(yes, service, not battleground trail) in the Winter war.

Now here is the thing, not just because the Allies were in German territory and the German was just desperately throwing away everything they had in their inventory, made those equipments "WWII themed" feasible. The allies were also developing a lot of experimental equipment. They just did not have to put them out so quickly because there is no need to send out something that is unpolished( come on, man, more than 80% of Panthers and Tigers served during the battle of Kursk were lost due to not combat reasons).

That is being said, stop complaining, so you may be able to see Maus in this game in the future.
Pip
15 Jul 2021, 14:34 PM
#70
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1579

Why not, for example, take Möbelwagen (Sd.Kfz. 161/3) instead of Wirbelwind, for a change. A small number of Sd.Kfz. 161/3 ended up in Italy, here they had the 26th and 29th Panzer and 90th Panzergrenadier Divisions (90th received four Möbelwagen and four Wirbelwind)


Personally I'd like to see OKW's Flak-HT make a return.

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 14:26 PMHarry


Snip



Why do you want to so desperately make this an "Axis v Allies" argument? The various German (And soviet) vehicles were mentioned because they're the most obvious examples of vehicles that aren't really appropriate for the timeframe. Mentioning Axis tanks doesn't magically make the post some veiled "Actually I /do/ want these retarded prototypes" post.

Nobody is asking for the Maus. I have no clue why you have it in your head that people actually want the Maus in the game either.
15 Jul 2021, 14:56 PM
#71
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 14:26 PMHarry


Hey man, the fact that you mentioned way more german phototypes than the allies' just clearly indicated you won't even ever start a post like this if there was Maus added into the game rather than the Black Prince.


No it doesn't. Stop bringing irrelevant ad Hominems into this discussion


jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 14:26 PMHarry

Soviets also have sent out a lot of experimental tanks desperately during the early stage of war in very small numbers. Su-100-Y fought in the Battle of Smolensk, so did a few T-150s, Kv-3s, and, according to some official archives, one Kv-4.


I assume you have sources for those "official archives". Kv 4 did, as far as I know, not even enter prototype stage, also I can't find anything that is not World Of Tanks related about the so called T 150 or the Kv 3. And there was only one Su 100 Y ever built. It would make more sense than Black Prince since it apparently was at least used but still would be a joke if implemented


jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 14:26 PMHarry

few M-75 107mm heavy AT guns were sent to the battle for a somewhat last-ditch reason. If you do not know the gun, which I think you don't, it is the Soviet version Pak44(not the 43/41) but instead built in 1940. Besides, T-100 and SMK also saw service(yes, service, not battleground trail) in the Winter war.


According to Wikipedia the 107 mm gun did have a penetration of 121 mm at point blank at 1.000 meters. That is far off from the Pak 44 and on par with a Panzer 4 that is using APCR rounds

And again ... only one SMK built. And what the garden does the Winter War have to do with the German-Russian Front ???


jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 14:26 PMHarry

That is being said, stop complaining, so you may be able to see Maus in this game in the future.


"Stop complaining so you get to see stuff that you don't want to see". Ah yes ...
15 Jul 2021, 14:58 PM
#72
avatar of Harry

Posts: 158

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 14:34 PMPip


Personally I'd like to see OKW's Flak-HT make a return.



Why do you want to so desperately make this an "Axis v Allies" argument? The various German (And soviet) vehicles were mentioned because they're the most obvious examples of vehicles that aren't really appropriate for the timeframe. Mentioning Axis tanks doesn't magically make the post some veiled "Actually I /do/ want these retarded prototypes" post.

Nobody is asking for the Maus. I have no clue why you have it in your head that people actually want the Maus in the game either.


Go back and read my post carefully. I am not saying just the phototypes, but almost all german newly implemented tanks in 1944 and 1945 in general.
Also, oh boy, this is for sure an "Axis v Allies" argument. Go back and read how many people are thinking it is fine to have JT, Ostwind, and Sturm Tiger in CoH2.
15 Jul 2021, 15:09 PM
#73
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 14:58 PMHarry


Go back and read my post carefully. I am not saying just the phototypes, but almost all german newly implemented tanks in 1944 and 1945 in general.
Also, oh boy, this is for sure an "Axis v Allies" argument. Go back and read how many people are thinking it is fine to have JT, Ostwind, and Sturm Tiger in CoH2.


How is this:

Jagdtiger: 70 produced, used from late 1944 to the end of the War, actually present at the Western Front

Sturmtiger: 18 built, used from late 1944 to the end of the War, actually present at the Western Front

Ostwind: 44 built, one prototype used during the battle of France, one platoon equipped with Ostwinds took part during Operation Southwind, also took part at the offensive at lake Balaton

for you the same as this:

Black Prince: 6 built, never used

Also there are lots of people that complain about Ostwind or Sturmtiger ...
15 Jul 2021, 15:12 PM
#74
avatar of Harry

Posts: 158



No it doesn't. Stop bringing irrelevant ad Hominems into this discussion




I assume you have sources for those "official archives". Kv 4 did, as far as I know, not even enter prototype stage, also I can't find anything that is not World Of Tanks related about the so called T 150 or the Kv 3. And there was only one Su 100 Y ever built. It would make more sense than Black Prince since it apparently was at least used but still would be a joke if implemented




According to Wikipedia the 107 mm gun did have a penetration of 121 mm at point blank at 1.000 meters. That is far off from the Pak 44 and on par with a Panzer 4 that is using APCR rounds

And again ... only one SMK built. And what the garden does the Winter War have to do with the German-Russian Front ???




"Stop complaining so you get to see stuff that you don't want to see". Ah yes ...


Oh boy, another one who thinks they just learned a history lesson after playing a video game. Also, you just argue somebody else using Wiki as a source.
Here is a great article about T-150 (or object 150)
http://www.tankarchives.ca/2013/04/prototype-kvs.html

Also, I said, "according to some(not all) official archives," which means I can not guarantee if it was true.

Also, see the picture below. M-75 can penetrate 188 mm armor at 1000 meters. The one you mentioned is M-42, it is another 107mm gun, which has a shorter barrel.


Winter war was part of the Second World War. SMK and T-100's actions during the Winter War were very important in Tank research because their poor performances made the german granted fault intels about the future KV tank. I just think it is worth to be mentioned. And also, from your point of view, they also served in the war.

Now, if I did, in fact, misunderstood you. And you seriously do not want anything experimental or not properly fit the time frame in the game. Go out and start another post complaining about Ostwind being in the OST faction in COH2.I will then apologize
15 Jul 2021, 15:13 PM
#75
avatar of Harry

Posts: 158





Also there are lots of people that complain about Ostwind or Sturmtiger ...


not you guys
15 Jul 2021, 15:17 PM
#76
avatar of Harry

Posts: 158



How is this:

Jagdtiger: 70 produced, used from late 1944 to the end of the War, actually present at the Western Front

Sturmtiger: 18 built, used from late 1944 to the end of the War, actually present at the Western Front

Ostwind: 44 built, one prototype used during the battle of France, one platoon equipped with Ostwinds took part during Operation Southwind, also took part at the offensive at lake Balaton

for you the same as this:

Black Prince: 6 built, never used

...


As what I said, "not just because the Allies were in German territory and the German was just desperately throwing away everything they had in their inventory, made those equipments "WWII themed" feasible."
You could see the actions of various allies' phototypes if the Germans were marching in their territory.
Pip
15 Jul 2021, 15:21 PM
#77
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1579

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 14:58 PMHarry


Go back and read my post carefully. I am not saying just the phototypes, but almost all german newly implemented tanks in 1944 and 1945 in general.
Also, oh boy, this is for sure an "Axis v Allies" argument. Go back and read how many people are thinking it is fine to have JT, Ostwind, and Sturm Tiger in CoH2.


The JT, Ostwind, and Sturm Tiger were all actually used during WWII though. That's the difference.

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 15:17 PMHarry

You could see the actions of various allies' phototypes if the Germans were marching in their territory.


But they weren't marching through their territory, and they DIDN'T use their "phototypes"[sic].

You're just inventing alternate history at this point.
15 Jul 2021, 15:25 PM
#78
avatar of Harry

Posts: 158

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 15:21 PMPip


The JT, Ostwind, and Sturm Tiger were all actually used during WWII though. That's the difference.



But they weren't marching through their territory, and they DIDN'T use their "phototypes"[sic].

You're just inventing alternate history at this point.


Oh, come on, how many times do I have to say this? They were used because the Germans were desperate and needed everything they had to be on the front. You would be able to see IS-4, 5, or even 6 if the Germans were marching in the Soviet territory in 1945.
15 Jul 2021, 15:30 PM
#79
avatar of Harry

Posts: 158

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2021, 15:21 PMPip


The JT, Ostwind, and Sturm Tiger were all actually used during WWII though. That's the difference.



But they weren't marching through their territory, and they DIDN'T use their "phototypes"[sic].

You're just inventing alternate history at this point.


And you cant call any phototype not a phototype because they saw very limited action in the front.

This is a game, after all, not a historical documentary. If you would rather see a true reflection of history, made the Tiger have a 70% chance to have a sudden engine break down then.
Also, make ISU-152 able to one-shot everything.
15 Jul 2021, 15:39 PM
#80
avatar of LordRommel
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 269 | Subs: 1

Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger and Ostwind werent "prototypes".
A prototype is a test bed for a new weapon type.
The Sturmtiger was a planned vehicle for the urban combat.
It was produced in limited numbers because it was a so called "Schwerpunktwaffe" (weapon for special combat situations). The "Schwerpunktwaffen" were often build in smaller numbers because the german High command thought were only used not often and only by special circumstances.
The Ostwind was part of the Flakpanzer program of the Wehrmacht.
The Ostwind on PzIV was a regular concept. The low numbers were the result of the fact that the army had ordered small numbers and only a small number of factories were ordered to build it.
The Flakpanzer III Ostwind was a prototype ;) At the end of the war a small batch of Flakpanzer III were build. It was ordered by the Artillery arm to defend the StuG units against air attacks. So the Pz III was chooses for spare part reasons.
The Jagdtiger was a "Schwerpunktwaffe" too and was planed to be build in small numbers. The self propelled gun should be assigned to special tasks so the army ordered small numbers because they wont need large numbers of the specialized Jagdtiger.

So basing from my point of view none of the 3 tanks were a "prototype" at all.

My2cents
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