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Commander Update Beta 2021 - USF Feedback

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16 May 2021, 03:54 AM
#781
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 402




Snares in general should be tuned to scale with Veterancy. For example Vet 0 units don't snare at all, while Vet 1 would be any vehicle below 50% HP, Vet 2 would be 75% and Vet 3 always snare. Granted these values can be adjusted but the point is Snaring should scale with the Unit Veterancy.

This would make diving a more tactical choice since you can estimate the risk vs your tank as opposed to random RNG for German Vehicles (as allied Handheld AT fails to penetrate sometimes) vs German almost always snaring allied tanks.



Id just give all snares 1000 pen and be done with it.
16 May 2021, 09:36 AM
#782
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 523




Snares in general should be tuned to scale with Veterancy. For example Vet 0 units don't snare at all, while Vet 1 would be any vehicle below 50% HP, Vet 2 would be 75% and Vet 3 always snare. Granted these values can be adjusted but the point is Snaring should scale with the Unit Veterancy.


Then losing your units is a death sentence. Although I agree the game should revolve around veterancy but that is just too much.
Pip
16 May 2021, 14:28 PM
#783
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1415

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 09:36 AMJilet


Then losing your units is a death sentence. Although I agree the game should revolve around veterancy but that is just too much.


The game revolving around veterancy in such a dramatic fashion would probably be OK if there wasn't quite such a large amount of luck involved in squad preservation. You don't necessarily have to make a mistake/your opponent outplay you to lose infantry squads in some circumstances (Rocket artillery being the main example. This is already a huge blow, but if veterancy gated off basic unit performance then the loss of a squad through RNG would likely have the potential to lose games by itself. (The recent change to Riflemen was, therefore, fantastic)



Incidentally, an infantry squad being able to "Always snare" regardless of HP/bouncing would really badly impact medium tanks' viability (And impact heavy tanks in a similar, but even more severe fashion)
16 May 2021, 16:54 PM
#784
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 523

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2021, 14:28 PMPip

snip


I misunderstood your post. Yeah I agree with your sentiment now.
17 May 2021, 10:45 AM
#785
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2319 | Subs: 2

Idea for Heavy Cav Commander:

In case the Pershing needs better repair and/or the current repair buff does not work out:
The Field defenses could be swapped out with the Urban assault kit. This way there would be proper benefit in having two REs on the field if one gets the grenade launcher.
However this change implies multiple other changes (less defensive to more offensive layout) that affects the whole commander just to "fix" the Pershing. So not sure overall, just a thought.
17 May 2021, 12:46 PM
#786
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 264

Idea for Heavy Cav Commander:

In case the Pershing needs better repair and/or the current repair buff does not work out:
The Field defenses could be swapped out with the Urban assault kit. This way there would be proper benefit in having two REs on the field if one gets the grenade launcher.
However this change implies multiple other changes (less defensive to more offensive layout) that affects the whole commander just to "fix" the Pershing. So not sure overall, just a thought.


Since so many people are negative on giving Pershing durability of Tiger. I'd say give Pershing more AI dmg somehow. I do know many people "think" Pershing does more AI than Tiger. But the tests shows it does not. Or even if it does, very neglectable.

With current stat, Pershing is just inferior version of Tiger with 10mp difference in cost.
17 May 2021, 23:37 PM
#787
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 402



Snip


The easy solution is adding a pintle. Its good consistent dps.
MMX
18 May 2021, 06:15 AM
#788
avatar of MMX

Posts: 785 | Subs: 1



Since so many people are negative on giving Pershing durability of Tiger. I'd say give Pershing more AI dmg somehow. I do know many people "think" Pershing does more AI than Tiger. But the tests shows it does not. Or even if it does, very neglectable.

With current stat, Pershing is just inferior version of Tiger with 10mp difference in cost.


While i don't agree that the Tiger has better AI than the Pershing, the difference is definitely pretty small - too small maybe if this is supposed to be the defining distinction between the two.

Another thing that came to my mind after reading the beta patch notes and which I hadn't considered yet is that the Tiger will receive a 10% bonus to scatter at Vet 2 (unless that has been scrapped) in the new patch. Now that doesn't sound like much, but due to how scatter works this will make it ~21% more likely to hit something and further close the gap between both tanks in terms of AI.
In light of this it might be justified to beef up the Pershing's AI DPS a little as well. This could be done in many different ways; for example, mirroring the scatter bonus with Vet, improving base scatter and/or AoE, or something more in line with the general faction traits, such as a lower moving scatter penalty. Right now the Pershing should have a x2 scatter modifier on the move, as most other tanks including the Tiger have. This could be cut down to x1.5 like it is the case for the 75mm Sherman or even lower than that to make the Pershing more deadly on the move.
Other ideas, such as higher base MG DPS or a pintle .5cal might work as well, though the performance gain would probably be rather small.
18 May 2021, 07:11 AM
#789
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11980 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 May 2021, 06:15 AMMMX


While i don't agree that the Tiger has better AI than the Pershing, the difference is definitely pretty small - too small maybe if this is supposed to be the defining distinction between the two.

...

Another factor to consider should be that Pershing is firing on grenadiers and Tiger on riflemen.
18 May 2021, 07:29 AM
#790
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 523

jump backJump back to quoted post18 May 2021, 07:11 AMVipper

Another factor to consider should be that Pershing is firing on grenadiers and Tiger on riflemen.


Wasn't the issue addressed with damage reduction of grenadiers already though ?
MMX
18 May 2021, 07:44 AM
#791
avatar of MMX

Posts: 785 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 May 2021, 07:29 AMJilet


Wasn't the issue addressed with damage reduction of grenadiers already though ?


yes, precisely. not to mention the pershing also faces volks and the occasional osttruppen or g-43 fusiliers.

squad size does of course matter but the 5th man doesn't automatically mean rifles have 25% higher survivability than grens
18 May 2021, 09:00 AM
#792
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11980 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 May 2021, 07:29 AMJilet


Wasn't the issue addressed with damage reduction of grenadiers already though ?

partially yes when vet 3.

Ostheer infatry do have to retreat early or risk wipes
19 May 2021, 04:27 AM
#793
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3125 | Subs: 1


However this change implies multiple other changes (less defensive to more offensive layout) that affects the whole commander just to "fix" the Pershing. So not sure overall, just a thought.

Yeah I think the field defenses should stay. Riflemen mines are more useful combo with the Pershing in the long run imo. Having a mine on your mainline makes it easier to keep planting them in the late game

Not to mention you can always just get zooks on REs to give them other usefulness
MMX
19 May 2021, 06:43 AM
#794
avatar of MMX

Posts: 785 | Subs: 1


Yeah I think the field defenses should stay. Riflemen mines are more useful combo with the Pershing in the long run imo. Having a mine on your mainline makes it easier to keep planting them in the late game

Not to mention you can always just get zooks on REs to give them other usefulness


Gotta say I'm also rather fond of rifleman field defenses. Sandbags on mainlines are always great to have, though they're probably more worthwhile in Infantry thanks to the synergy with M1919s.
Also, the absence of usable non-doc mines (except M20 mines obviously) is what makes this ability slot so valuable over the entire course of a game. Would really miss it if it were replaced.
19 May 2021, 08:03 AM
#795
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2319 | Subs: 2


Yeah I think the field defenses should stay. Riflemen mines are more useful combo with the Pershing in the long run imo. Having a mine on your mainline makes it easier to keep planting them in the late game

Not to mention you can always just get zooks on REs to give them other usefulness

I like the field defenses more too, it was just an idea to make echelon builds more viable if the Pershing needs them. Technically, it would also slightly improve the ability distribution, since 3 commanders have field defenses but only one the assault kit.

One issue the Pershing has is that it forces you into a very rigid build.
You need an additional Jackson for AT, probably a Sherman for some more flexibility. Together with the ambo you're already at 49 POP (which is a good value for inf/vehicle balance). But since you also need 3 Rifles, one officer, the major and at least one echolon unit, you're up to 86 POP, but only have 4 (/5 with the RE) squads to effectively cap.
I had the feeling that at least Ostheer Tiger builds could slightly save on POP for another squad of flexibility, since the Tiger has so good AT that support by a pop-wise cheaper PaK or StuG is sufficient. 4xGren, Tiger, StuG, P4, 2x Pio build costs 81 POP. With the necessary squad weapons you also go up to high 80 POP, but you have usually 5-7 squads that can cap. Optionally, you have the choice to replace the StuG/P4 with other units (PaK/Panther/Brumm/PWerfer) depending on what you need. As USF, the build described above is pretty much it, you have 13 POP to experiment and react to your opponent. So basically the Ranger squad, unless you throw a Rifle to free more POP. It's not necessarily a bad build, but you don't have many options to react.
19 May 2021, 16:29 PM
#796
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1749 | Subs: 1

Idea for Heavy Cav Commander:

In case the Pershing needs better repair and/or the current repair buff does not work out:
The Field defenses could be swapped out with the Urban assault kit. This way there would be proper benefit in having two REs on the field if one gets the grenade launcher.
However this change implies multiple other changes (less defensive to more offensive layout) that affects the whole commander just to "fix" the Pershing. So not sure overall, just a thought.


Another idea would be to give Rangers a "Rudimentary Repair" upgrade option similar to PZ Grens in German Infantry. Thematically this fits since the commander is built around Combined Arms. You could balance it by having it take up a weapon slot so you can't have triple zook rangers than can also repair your Pershing. Though you can't typically support too many rangers in a build so it might not bee too stronk.
19 May 2021, 16:49 PM
#797
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2319 | Subs: 2


Another idea would be to give Rangers a "Rudimentary Repair" upgrade option similar to PZ Grens in German Infantry. Thematically this fits since the commander is built around Combined Arms. You could balance it by having it take up a weapon slot so you can't have triple zook rangers than can also repair your Pershing. Though you can't typically support too many rangers in a build so it might not bee too stronk.

Personally, I don't think this is a good ability. Rangers and PGrens are way too valuable to waste their time on repairing duty. Conscript repairs are okay since those are fairly cheap and also 6/7 men, but PGrens and Rangers won't make much sense unless they have a repair rate above their faction's pioneer unit. At least that's my opinion.
19 May 2021, 18:38 PM
#798
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1749 | Subs: 1


Personally, I don't think this is a good ability. Rangers and PGrens are way too valuable to waste their time on repairing duty. Conscript repairs are okay since those are fairly cheap and also 6/7 men, but PGrens and Rangers won't make much sense unless they have a repair rate above their faction's pioneer unit. At least that's my opinion.


I agree that it's not great but Heavy Calvary doesn't have a ton of munitions sinks so it wouldn't be bad to just give it to Rangers as another way to spend munis so that you have the flexibility to speed up repairs or for emergency critical removals. With the new damage received bonus for Pershing you'd probably be better able to swing just 1 RE and supplemental ranger repairs (especially if you're going the bazooka route where you're probably having them escort Pershing anyway.) It'll never be ideal use of their time but it'd be something. It would also be a nice little buff to Urban Assault where Calliopes are the same way and require RE repairs.
19 May 2021, 18:59 PM
#799
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11980 | Subs: 1



... It would also be a nice little buff to Urban Assault where Calliopes are the same way and require RE repairs.

Last thing Urban defense needs is buff since it already one of most popular commander about to become even more popular once Dozer Sherman are no longer available to another commander.

The commander need nerf not buffs.
19 May 2021, 20:40 PM
#800
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 969

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2021, 18:59 PMVipper

Last thing Urban defense needs is buff since it already one of most popular commander about to become even more popular once Dozer Sherman are no longer available to another commander.

The commander need nerf not buffs.


The only reason Urban is popular is because the USF has an incomplete stock roster. Not because it's got some magical units in it. Judging by the last time we played together, you should be asking for Mega Buffs for USF.
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