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russian armor

"reserves" abilities

14 Sep 2020, 03:02 AM
#1
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4364 | Subs: 1

hi all, wanna do some talking about the EFA reserve abilities and how to address them without them being lame clones of each other with no thought into the factions the ability will be a part of

firstly ostroppen reserves:

i believe this ability can work, both thematicly and in gameplay the ability has merit, however its just so damn hard to get any use from due to how narrow of a window it has.
ost has small squad sizes, thats known to all, so the appeal to getting a larger squad with a snare, and cheap per head is quite clear to most, prostroopen are renowned the world over after all.

the issue lies in the reduced window and increased requirements ontop of the reduced yields it received last time it was looked at (perhaps it was nuked specifically so it could be claimed it doesnt work at a later date so it could be changed with something else? who knows... sure looks that way to me given the changes it received anyways....)
so the fix seems pretty simple... undo some of the gutting it received. 30 seconds more in duration could easily take it from never worth the risk to calculated exchange. keep the 5 models required and keep the hard cap at 1 squad given back but for the love of god let it last longer than a blink. you practically have to walk through a minefield do get any milage out of it right now with the limited timing.

the result is you more or less have created a ostroppen call in that uses MU and MP instead of just MP. you could give the ostroppen the LMG42 as well if you wanted to round it out but the important bit is that a neat thematic ability that requires player input and gives something new to the player isnt replaced with a death rebate.



for rapid conscription on the other hand, should be changed and for a similar reason as above, but inverse. cons are as accessible as they come. an ability that replaces my cons with more cons assuming i timed my ability wrong doesnt add anything really.
i dont like the death rebate for this either because soviet already have merge to help stem the bleed and cheap conscripts (per head) to smooth out that bit. giving them MP back has the potential to be either really broken, especially combined with 7 man cons and their reduced reinforcement cost. baaaaad business all around while not being ver interesting either.

no, id look towards something a little more interesting.
reinforcement speed for conscripts, build time for conscripts, POSSIBLY a very small (like legit, 1 mp) reinforcement reduction on conscripts.
numbers could be tweaked across multiple variables to ensure the ability doesnt over perform and depending on if it would be wanted as a passive or an active ability. if passive stages could be unlocked via tech buildings. if an active it would certainly be much more niche unless scaled up and would most certainly find most application in team games but at least its INTERESTING and engaging. thematic and interesting while also helping set commanders that have it out from the rest in an interesting way.



anyways, thoughts?
14 Sep 2020, 05:17 AM
#2
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 546


...OP...



So first off, I agree that these two abilities in their current forms suck and need to be changed.

I like the idea of rapid conscription being more of a conscript enhancement. Speeding up deployment times/reinforcement times does sound interesting.
Like it could be a timed ability that during its duration ALL infantry and weapon teams have faster reinforcement and cheaper reinforcement. I don't believe rapid conscription comes in any commanders with elite infantry so you wouldn't have to worry about a flood of guards or shocks.


As for ostruppen reserves, honestly being rewarded with ostruppen for munitions sucks however you slice it. I guess what I'd like to see is it as a late game "comeback" type ability. In the late game, when your squads have been slowly wittled away and your VPs are draining out, Ostruppen reserves comes in letting you recruit cheap infantry to replace losses-you know, the way reserves might actually function IRL.

So something like "If your VP's are below 200 and lower then your opponent's, you can call in ostruppen for 150mp each." Gives you a weak, poorly scaling but extremely cheap callin at a time when often a cheap callin is exactly what you need.
14 Sep 2020, 05:42 AM
#3
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 367

Imo those abilities ( the relif infantry in particular ) should not exist in this way. Don't change the cooldown, the price nor the amount of squads, just simply change the ability alltogether.

The problem with this ability is, that it can be completely broken is both ways. Either it is a waste of ammo, or it will literally keep you in the game. The later part of my claim stems from recent experience that slightly changed my opinion regarding this ability. Wehr player was blobbing straight into my Katjuscha and lost pretty much everything. But thanks to this ability he got a few Osttruppen squads and was able to keep the fight up. It is just bad design, that encourages mindlessly putting your troops at risk, which causes it to be almost never used by the average player, but still used with some nice effect by people who blob all day long.
14 Sep 2020, 05:46 AM
#4
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 276

Guys, for the second time, it's Relief Infantry. Ostruppen reserves is the one found in Mobile Defense doctrine which simply deploys a pair ostruppen (and thus arguably a much better ability).

And to add something to the conversation, Relief Infantry should be replaced in their respective doctrines, for example with Hull Down (very underrated ability) in Festung Support and Assault and Hold in Lightning War.
14 Sep 2020, 09:26 AM
#5
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8836 | Subs: 1

My suggestion remains:
the ability provides squads with target size 1 that can merge but can not reinforce thus providing reinforcement for front line troops without increasing one's army size.
14 Sep 2020, 16:41 PM
#6
avatar of Gbpirate
Writer Badge

Posts: 843

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2020, 09:26 AMVipper
My suggestion remains:
the ability provides squads with target size 1 that can merge but can not reinforce thus providing reinforcement for front line troops without increasing one's army size.


Can you rephrase this? There's some words missing in your thoughts because i don't understand what you mean and I'm sure other people feel the same way
14 Sep 2020, 17:00 PM
#7
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8836 | Subs: 1



Can you rephrase this? There's some words missing in your thoughts because i don't understand what you mean and I'm sure other people feel the same way

Sure.

Instead of providing the normal conscripts/Ostruppen you get the different "new" squad. Lets call them "Relief infatry squad" for now.

Relief infatry squad has entities with target size of 1
Number of entities can be from 4-6
The squad has the ability to merge
The squad does not have the ability to reinforce

In the sort the "Relief infatry squad" can be used to reinforce front line infantry via merge or re-crew support weapons.

It does not how ever increase the size of one's army since the squad can not reinforce and will eventually run out of entities.

Any questions?
14 Sep 2020, 17:44 PM
#8
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 130

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2020, 17:00 PMVipper

Sure.

Instead of providing the normal conscripts/Ostruppen you get the different "new" squad. Lets call them "Relief infatry squad" for now.

Relief infatry squad has entities with target size of 1
Number of entities can be from 4-6
The squad has the ability to merge
The squad does not have the ability to reinforce

In the sort the "Relief infatry squad" can be used to reinforce front line infantry via merge or re-crew support weapons.

It does not how ever increase the size of one's army since the squad can not reinforce and will eventually run out of entities.

Any questions?


I've said before that this is kind of a good idea, but after some more thought, I think this could work quite well.

Weapon teams recrewed by squads that cannot reinforce actually can reinforce. If you set the model cost of those Relief Squads to be equal to the default weapon team crew reinforcement cost (22 mp for OH, 15 mp for Soviets), then it should be fine (note that weapon teams recrewed by Ostruppen have 16 mp reinforcement cost).

Considering how such Relief Squad would be unable to reinforce itself, would arrive without any veterancy (and probably shouldn't earn any experience at all) and would (likely) have combat stats equivalent to vanilla Conscripts/Ostruppen, you would be incentivized to use it only for merging. I can't think of any other crafty ways of using them, but I'll leave that as an exercise for better players than me.
14 Sep 2020, 18:05 PM
#9
avatar of maahowl

Posts: 39

When it comes to rapid conscription, I would love for it to instantly reinforce infantry that can be reinforced, or temporarily cut down the reinforcement cost and time, maybe even provide healing for a short time near reinforcement points.

It would, perhaps, make the soviet halftrack more appealing and a valid choice over the t-70 - less shock value for a very stable frontline. With these changes, maybe, just maybe, extended tier 3 usage and its conscript upgrade unlock will finally be viable.

---

I like the idea of relief infantry providing a single or two squads that can merge, it would perhaps make grens a bit better without the 5-man upgrade. IMO it should have mirrored osttruppen stats (without the mg42 upgrade, panzerfaust and behind cover bonus, maybe ditch combat vet too) and not have the ability to retreat.

Not having retreat should be possible, teamweapons can't do that already and there exists a mod that adds an infantry squad which is unable to retreat (Imperial Japanese Forces, I believe), so it should be an easy fix, the only thing that would need adjusting is ability cost, unit description and perhaps reinforcement time and cost if you want relief infantry to be mostly single-use.
14 Sep 2020, 20:06 PM
#10
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4594

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2020, 17:00 PMVipper

Sure.

Instead of providing the normal conscripts/Ostruppen you get the different "new" squad. Lets call them "Relief infatry squad" for now.

Relief infatry squad has entities with target size of 1
Number of entities can be from 4-6
The squad has the ability to merge
The squad does not have the ability to reinforce

In the sort the "Relief infatry squad" can be used to reinforce front line infantry via merge or re-crew support weapons.

It does not how ever increase the size of one's army since the squad can not reinforce and will eventually run out of entities.

Any questions?

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2020, 17:44 PMOlekman


I've said before that this is kind of a good idea, but after some more thought, I think this could work quite well.

Weapon teams recrewed by squads that cannot reinforce actually can reinforce. If you set the model cost of those Relief Squads to be equal to the default weapon team crew reinforcement cost (22 mp for OH, 15 mp for Soviets), then it should be fine (note that weapon teams recrewed by Ostruppen have 16 mp reinforcement cost).

Considering how such Relief Squad would be unable to reinforce itself, would arrive without any veterancy (and probably shouldn't earn any experience at all) and would (likely) have combat stats equivalent to vanilla Conscripts/Ostruppen, you would be incentivized to use it only for merging. I can't think of any other crafty ways of using them, but I'll leave that as an exercise for better players than me.


I really like this idea, how would they deploy though? Maybe one large squad or two smaller ones? The Soviet one could be 7 men and the Ostheer one 5 men, or alternatively 2 of 5/3 (fully reinforce 2 squads). They could either be armed with Conscript/Panzerfusilier rifles or just crew rifles (crew nagant, crew karabiner) if you wish to completely discourage their use as infantry. Could give them Sov/Ost AT Gun Crew models so they stand out as being distinct from any regular infantry.
14 Sep 2020, 20:38 PM
#11
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 130




I really like this idea, how would they deploy though? Maybe one large squad or two smaller ones? The Soviet one could be 7 men and the Ostheer one 5 men, or alternatively 2 of 5/3 (fully reinforce 2 squads). They could either be armed with Conscript/Panzerfusilier rifles or just crew rifles (crew nagant, crew karabiner) if you wish to completely discourage their use as infantry. Could give them Sov/Ost AT Gun Crew models so they stand out as being distinct from any regular infantry.


I thought that keeping the original mode of deployment (lose models to earn squads) would be fine with this implementation. You wouldn't be killing yourself with popcap of extra squads, so it shouldn't be as unwieldy as original abilities.

Also, using gun crew models is pretty solid idea too, though using regular Ostruppen/Conscript models is fine, as long as they get a new proper squad icon.
14 Sep 2020, 21:02 PM
#12
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 558

I always think it should more easy to use,just use 100 ammo switch 200MP like COH1,or use ammo to call-in Ostroppon or like OKW old firestorm commander when lost soldier return 20 MP
14 Sep 2020, 21:44 PM
#13
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4594

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2020, 20:38 PMOlekman
I thought that keeping the original mode of deployment (lose models to earn squads) would be fine with this implementation. You wouldn't be killing yourself with popcap of extra squads, so it shouldn't be as unwieldy as original abilities.

I personally never liked that implementation because you had to plan to lose models and it was kind of weird like that, nobody 'plans' to lose half their army, and especially not for Osttruppen (and especially not old Osttruppen). I'm not sure what the best implementation would be here though, because straight up Munitions for Squads is an odd concept as well. Maybe I was just never good at foreseeing losses and using that to my advantage.


jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2020, 20:38 PMOlekman
Also, using gun crew models is pretty solid idea too, though using regular Ostruppen/Conscript models is fine, as long as they get a new proper squad icon.

Soviets have several unused (in multiplayer) icons, they can either use the one with a horizontal bar or the single Mosin-Nagant icon (like Conscripts, except it only shows one rifle). I think Ostheer and OKW use all of their icons though, so they'll likely need a new one; or alternatively both sides just use the neutral 'bar' icon for their replacement unit.
14 Sep 2020, 22:56 PM
#14
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4364 | Subs: 1

I always think it should more easy to use,just use 100 ammo switch 200MP like COH1,or use ammo to call-in Ostroppon or like OKW old firestorm commander when lost soldier return 20 MP

These modes are something I specifically want to avoid. I'd like for them to be slightly engaging and thematic. Flat manpower back is uninspiring and kinda broken (20mp back on cons that cost 18/man? Or grens reinforcement cost 2/3 rebate?)

IMO you shouldn't WANT to take loses, but the abilities should thematically represent how the factions managed with these.
Reserve infantry gives lesser infantry but with decent utility. No match for the Germans they are replacing but more plentiful and expendable--something ost desperately lacks late game or in messy team games. It's a niche but one that shouldn't be abandoned imo.

For the soviet, getting more con squads isn't really an issue at any point, sure the MU-MP conversion is a thing but really if you NEED another conscript odds are you'll just buy one. Furthermore the new 7 man feature makes needing to replace cons much less of a thing than in the past (where funny enough they were so trash you wouldn't want them anyways)
I feel for the soviet QUICKLY recouping costs to keep the line or keep up pressure us what they need, extra mp could work but it's so damn boring and can be stuck anywhere and any faction with no thought at all.
15 Sep 2020, 12:32 PM
#15
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 558


These modes are something I specifically want to avoid. I'd like for them to be slightly engaging and thematic. Flat manpower back is uninspiring and kinda broken (20mp back on cons that cost 18/man? Or grens reinforcement cost 2/3 rebate?)

IMO you shouldn't WANT to take loses, but the abilities should thematically represent how the factions managed with these.
Reserve infantry gives lesser infantry but with decent utility. No match for the Germans they are replacing but more plentiful and expendable--something ost desperately lacks late game or in messy team games. It's a niche but one that shouldn't be abandoned imo.

For the soviet, getting more con squads isn't really an issue at any point, sure the MU-MP conversion is a thing but really if you NEED another conscript odds are you'll just buy one. Furthermore the new 7 man feature makes needing to replace cons much less of a thing than in the past (where funny enough they were so trash you wouldn't want them anyways)
I feel for the soviet QUICKLY recouping costs to keep the line or keep up pressure us what they need, extra mp could work but it's so damn boring and can be stuck anywhere and any faction with no thought at all.


IMO for Soviet and Ost could be different ability,for Ost like what I say could use ammo to switch MP or maybe use ammo to call-in Ostroppon?
For Soviet maybe remove and rework Cons upgrade,be 50 ammo for single DP LMG,and rapid conscription could be passive,will reduce all infantry and weapon crews reinforce cost and time?
15 Sep 2020, 18:46 PM
#16
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 130


I personally never liked that implementation because you had to plan to lose models and it was kind of weird like that, nobody 'plans' to lose half their army, and especially not for Osttruppen (and especially not old Osttruppen). I'm not sure what the best implementation would be here though, because straight up Munitions for Squads is an odd concept as well. Maybe I was just never good at foreseeing losses and using that to my advantage.


Note that you're not getting an actual normal squad, but pretty much just equivalent in manpower with few extra steps. The "bonuses" you get from those Relief Squads is ability to reinforce weapon teams and capping points in a pinch. Plus, getting them for munitions wouldn't leave much counterplay for the opponent (although the counterplay against Rapid Conscription/Relief Infantry isn't stellar either).


Soviets have several unused (in multiplayer) icons, they can either use the one with a horizontal bar or the single Mosin-Nagant icon (like Conscripts, except it only shows one rifle). I think Ostheer and OKW use all of their icons though, so they'll likely need a new one; or alternatively both sides just use the neutral 'bar' icon for their replacement unit.


I also thought about repurposing that exact horizontal bar icon too. I assume that balance team/whoever is in charge at Relic would still prefer having new icon, but that one works.

In any case, I made a mock-up mod for this idea for anyone wanting to see how it could work. I only implemented it for Rapid Conscription, because I'm lazy (and it feels more thematically fitting for the Soviets than Ostheer in my opinion).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T4farhSzyzLMcqr5f3W4eUa0YpcTEehW/view?usp=sharing
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