Quality post right there.
Divided on the topic though. I think having 4 factions currently keeps the game alive, because even with only 2-3 maps, you can have at least some variety in gameplay. With only one faction per side and two main strats per faction, variety is very limited even in 3v3/4v4 games. The second factions spices up things a lot.
From what I have read, the balancing isn't an awful lot off. Yes, some broken stuff, but most of what I have read is that all factions are interesting to play and generally well designed. Regarding game design, having four faction from the start will help the overall faction design. Balancing two factions against each other will lead to "overfitting". "Faction A is strong in this phase, therefore B needs this counter earlier and peak afterwards, therefore unit X from faction A needs that buff...". The units will be tuned to fight their counterpart and the special strategy of the opposing faction. This can lead to very cool and interesting gameplay as in CoH1 and CoH2, but both games fucked up the introduction of additional factions. Balance was screwed and suddenly hard to tune because the first factions were meant to fight each other and none of the new factions. CoH3 balances each faction against two others from the start. This should hopefully reduce overfitting and allow easier introduction of new units and factions.
This surely came at the cost of other parts not being finished. I don't think that CoH3 would have been a solid game if it released with two factions and shifted resources elsewhere. There was too much wrong with the game at release, having four factions can't be the cause of these issues.
The post-release drought is a symptom of incompetent Relic leadership. They used their best PR speak to brush over concerns and glaring issues and padded themselves on the back with their store update, non-communication with the community and really embarrassing content like the videos of Steve (forgot the last name) stating how proud he is of the game and its current state. This was a leadership not wanting to accept their failure and trying to hide it.
SEGA or someone even higher at Relic realized and tried to sweep those people out during the layoffs. Which will obviously come with bigger trouble for the organisation and therefore even more breaks. That and the probably still poor planning are reasons why CoH3 hasn't had large content updates up to now. Updates seem to be much more focused though since then. I think the situation overall has improved.
Releasing two additional factions shortly after launch would have helped there to be "some" content for sure. But I don't think it would have been good content. There are to options:
1. They delay the release of two factions to generate some artificially "new" content later on. Release would have had even less content and poorer reviews than it already had.
2. They delay and shift resources elsewhere: Not that easily possible if you plan on a release shortly after launch. Relic cannot hire another audio engineer, because they still need the game designers. This only works if you release the factions a long time down the road as they did with WFA in CoH2. Then you can afford to focus on e.g. audio issues before the game's launch, fire the audio guy/move him to another project and get a gameplay designer for the new content (overly simplified process obviously). But you cannot shift your budget that quickly for 2 months to audio and then shift it back to gameplay design.
Relic bit off more than they could chew, at least with poor leadership and planning. Four factions at release is part of that, but not the main reason why the launch failed so horribly and why the post-launch phase was very underwhelming. |
To be honest, I guess it's a mix of CoH3 not being interesting and the community here aging. I guess the majority here was in their teens to twenties when CoH2 released. Back then you just had time to fuck around half the day. Add ten years, you're working a 40h week, have responsibilities, family to take care of. Obviously activity here and gaming time will go down, especially if the 'new CoH' just doesn't live up to the expectations.
This forum has lived off of balance discussions and other platforms don't even come close. Reddit threads are short lived by design and discord is a mess if you jam a couple of hundred people into the same server. This forum was decently active up to the very last patch for CoH2 and has outlived many other traditional forums. The fact that this thread got quite some responses within half a day shows that people are still lurking.
But take CoH2 not being supported (so balance discussions being pointless), an maturing community, Relic losing trust and CoH3 being uninteresting together, it shouldn't surprise anyone that there is relatively little in depth discussion anymore. |
Thread: LMG-4219 Jul 2023, 18:35 PM
Jesus Christ Donnie... |
https://community.companyofheroes.com/coh-franchise-home/company-of-heroes-3/blogs/62-wire-report-june-23-2023?page=1
Jesus Christ... First thing on the site is a charity donation event that always leave a bad aftertaste.
I'd say their value tags are pretty made up, but since it's subjective, to each their own. I don't know how it works in Canada, but in many countries donations can be deducted from your overall tax amount. If that's the case, it works like many other corporate donation schemes: You give money to the corporation, they donate it, file for a tax refund and get their 20-30% tax back, depending on what they pay.
On the other hand, Relic is sponsoring a charity bike ride, which means they put some own money in. Still, it would be better if they'd put some clarifications up or add money on top of the donated amount, otherwise I have to assume they will file the amount for a tax refund it if gets donated from their bank account.
I skipped through parts of the live stream that interested me most. There was no concrete information, and it did not feel like anything is really urgent. John in the beginning acknowledged that Relic is having a difficult time, but then went into the "we're making great progress in setting ourselves up for success", the usual PR blabbing to say nothing. It was weird to see how often they had to say "we don't have a date for that yet". It's both a sign of potential honesty, but on the other hand they should at least put one or two features to the forefront and say: THAT is our priority, we're working on this right now, and plan to release until August. Something that is in the near future, to motivate players and keep them playing, so that they can actually see improvements. Instead we get replays "sometime in fall", which can be anything from September to November. They're working on communication, but I still don't think they've really understood the issues.
Second, from your own past experience, I assume you would agree with me that losing 121 staff is a massive jolt which will be a Sword of Damocles hanging over those who survived. I don't know if that brings out the best in people and encourages them to work even longer hours, or whether it simply encourages them to move on before another chop occurs.
It'll be mentally harsh on anyone and I don't envy their positions. However, it will also depend on how much the remaining employees actually believe into their product or trust their leadership. If they don't, they will jump ship soon, or just work the bare minimum to reap the benefits before everything goes south. |
Coh3 is solid and the 1vs1 really enjoyable once you know to play it. My guess here is many people don't know how to play it and blame it on the game, hiding their lack of skill behind bugs and game issues that are real but not so prevalent. If you don't want to learn the game and expect similitude with coh2 to carry you, you'll evidently be disappointed.
I doubt that's the casePlayers are turned off by many other things, and you can probably sum up most negative reviews with the same 5 bullet points. Relic didn't do much to address those since launch, and won't in the near future either.
But even if we assume that players were just "too dumb" to play the game: That's actually Relic's fault. Relic apparently didn't manage to design the game for their target audience. The system seems to be too dubious and not intuitive, maybe too complicated to learn. If they aimed for a dedicated niche audience that's willing to invest that time and learn it, it would be fine. They didn't. They aimed for and marketed to casual gamers. Those don't want to spend as much time as they'd need to learn 1v1 play style. Relic missed their target audience and programmed the wrong game for them. That's a bad decision from Relic, at least from a business perspective, even if the game under these aspects is good.
But this also raises the next issue: They designed their game for 1v1, but most players and most offered game modes are team games. Which also means they missed their own aims for game design.
I believe you when you say that CoH3 is solid in some aspects and for a specific player base, but it is far from what Relic expected and needed to keep the game healthy. |
I'm serious, it really boggles my mind there is no crossplay. What easier way to ensure console players at least have humans to fight against than to add crossplay.
I just don't get it. Why were there so many issues with the friend request UI when it was simply intended to be redundant to steam, instead of connecting players cross platform? Why hide player names if not to avoid the possibility of console players having vulgar names relic might not be able to enforce bans on.
My theory is that crossplay WAS intended, but the devs didm't have the time or manpower to implement it, and left it to be added in the future or canned entirely. That's the only thing tht makes sense besides incompetence..
I think it's one of the unfortunately many things where Relic either failed at due to poor planning and the resulting time constraints. Some features got implemented due to larger plans, but then other parts did not get finished. Friends system -> backbone implemented at launch, but not much done with it. No time to integrate crossplay. Maybe they also wanted to go to the MS or any other store with CoH3 which would have necessitated such a system. Those features never got finished, so now there is a friends system that is fairly useless. Same with console crossplay.
Overall, Relic's workflow seems to be highly rigid and inflexible. That's how stupid decisions get pushed through up to the final version, because the decision has been made early on, issues came up in between but now you can't adjust anymore. That's why the July patch couldn't be changed anymore after the layoffs in May. That's two months for a simple patch, and they can't change it. That's really crazy. Player names two months after launch. More maps only after massive complaints fours months after launch. Community maps not-sure-when, months after the community started pushing for them. Replays in fall, half a year post launch.
They're doing the right thing, they're getting stuff in that the community wants. But it always looks a couple of months late. And the game might not have/have had those extra couple of months.
Memoryholed.
Lext time maybe archive the link with the waybackmachine then post it here lmao. Seems the Reddit mods are pretty protective about negativity.
I don't know how reddit works since I don't frequent that site. Looks to me like the OP removed it/deleted his account? Or is this how reddit displays posts after the mods removed them? |
Apologies. Wouldn't want to degrade the sanctity of this thread...
But point taken
The thread is pretty all over the place already, but another he-said-she-said about another thread doesn't help. These tend to escalate quickly |
To come back to Nigo's post:
We're now two weeks post launch and most 1v1 ladders have an astonishing <50 people ranked. Team games don't even make it to 100. And most ranked players have between 10-20 games. I guess saying coh3 has flopped on console is fairly clear, which is also bad news for the PC version. |
Vipper and Sky, please take the petty fights to PM. |
That not game industry standard, that's trade/industry/whatever company standard. And bare with me but if tomorrow Microsoft release an update that wreck your Windows and all data stored... I have bad news for you.
I know. I am aware. It's reinforcing my point: Companies having power over your a product you already paid for can have very detrimental effects. Also good ones, but consumers should be protected from damage.
Relic has delivered a game that works and been willing to patch every bug they find and to continue to do so for a certain time as per industry standard. From that your opinion that what they delivered doesn't meet your expectation is on you. Steam gives you 2 hours to refund and I don't know how the code of sale generally apply to this particular kind of service sold
Yes, I fully agree to this. But that's not the topic. The topic is being denied usage after purchase. You make the purchase based on the current state of the software. But later (days/months/years), the company denies you access. This can be active blocking (ban), a new patch breaking the software, bankruptcy of some intermediate service platform (Steam) or simply them generally revoking all licenses because as you said they claim to have that right in their EULA.
To my knowledge there's been few cases about that, but I am also not a lawyer and this topic has a lot of intricacies and will depend on where you live. I fortunately live in a country where I can treat EULAs as toilet paper. I can imagine though that at least at my place courts could rule against software companies, at least to some degree. Their EULAs are not engraved law, and while they obviously want to dodge as many responsibilities as possible, they legally can't. Probably at least.
but I'm pretty sure that if you buy something, use it and don't like it afterward you're not going to get much from the vendor.
Not sure what you mean by "something". Software is very different from physical goods, especially if company-side patching is either necessary or even enforced for proper usage. Software like a game can't be "used up" or damaged by the customer. At the same time the customer might get full benefit from even short-term use or could easily copy the software illegally. On the other hand, it might be difficult to judge the usability or quality of the product before purchase, something that is at least to some degree possible with physical goods. Software sales can be exploited from both sides. These laws are usually codified also in a way that a customer can have reasonable expectations about a sold good regarding usability, e.g. the hammer you bought not breaking on first normal use or software working in the first place.
A software company being able to revoke your access to the software you already paid for might be such a point as well. And that's the point of Rosbone: He technically doesn't really know the reason, because no one at Relic told him. Relic made a claim that he did wrong, but doesn't tell when, what and where. Relic has all the leverage, the only way for Rosbone to find out is to take Relic to court. Which is exactly why most law systems focus on customer protection much more than protection of the company. |