Profile of Hannibal

I generally agree with some of your point but I have to point out that sprint comes from camo and not G43. The combo is available in Jagger infatry though one of the most popular 1vs1 commanders.

That's true.
My bad, I think I played the Jager Infantry commander too much recently...

Eh, depends how you want to look at it.
6 DPS for any other infantry is quite a lot, but for PGs that's ~10% of their close range dps, but more with range increase, but that is compensated by really incomparably higher on the move DPS especially at longer ranges, so unless you constantly fight on ranges below 20-25 and never have to move in or move at all, g43 outperforms stgs.

If you want to ram rifles into opponent and use it from very close range and approach under cover of smoke or los blockers, stgs will be better.


I've also said its a side grade, but to me, as I have said, what you give up is well worth it vs what you gain, given more mobile nature of PGs, where they utilize g43 form most.

You should specify the range you are talking about since it varies quite a lot.
The moving DPS is about 1-2 DPS higher at close to mid and 5-8 DPS higher at long range. But bear in mind there is no engagement at 35 meters in the game, so you will never gain those 8 DPS advantage over StGs. You realistically get ~5 in the best situations and 1-3 in all others. Standing still for a second at mid range already compensates the lost DPS that you "paid" while closing in.
In an assault, the moving DPS advantage (not moving DPS itself) will not benefit you as much. You're running into enemy positions, but the way the upgrade currently works is to diminish the advantage of itself by doing so.

Your argument also works the other way around: Unless you're constantly moving at range 30+ or chasing retreating squads, the G43s don't have an awful lot going for them.

I think the upgrade would benefit if G43s PGrens got either a clear long range role (however they'd clash with LMG Grens) and/or the abilities were more focused on supporting an assault for other mobile units such as G43 Grens.

Its not weird. It makes your PGs better against pretty much every single type of inf enemy can throw at you. Yes you trade close range DPS, but at the same time your PGs gaining the ability to always engage at their terms.

You want to keep distance against close range squads? You can do it + you have a grende. You want to close in vs long range squads? You can do it. You want to chase someone or push? You can do it.

You are looking at raw DPS and for some reason, you think that huge close range DPS is somehow better, then over-all DPS. Also you shoudnt forget that G43 is a rifle and it has tendency to drop models with few good RNG rolls, unlike StGs.

What I think is weird is that pushing in (which is the point of the G43) is actually hurting your DPS compared to StGs.
You can sprint away from danger, but given the offensive nature of most G43 commanders plus the fact that all other squads that have a sprint come with superior close range DPS (comparison here is twofold, once is G43 vs StG and then close vs long DPS) this makes this ability weird. Sprint on normal PGrens would actually be worth way more than on the G43 version. But sprinting into battle is something you want to generally avoid (flanking MGs etc not included) if you paid for the G43s, otherwise you could have just stayed with StGs.

I am not arguing that there is no niche for G43 PGrens and that the abilities are useless in all scenarios, but that the bundle that the upgrade gets you contradicts its own function to some extend.

The squad should have a clear strength and a clear weakness. They have a clear strength at long range combat, but if their "weakness" is close range, they should not have sprint. Otherwise positioning is not as important.

It used to be long ago, but they were buffed a lot and given 3rd rifle since.
You give up a bit of close range DPS and gain massive long range and on the move increase, so its at very worst a side grade with more benefits then downsides.

It is more like you give up a lot of close to mid range DPS to gain a okay to decent DPS increase to long range and okay to very good when moving.

I'd say it is a side grade for sure, but it is not a clear upgrade as you say. Overall the upgrade a weird design for PGrens when looking at the additional abilities

According to Serealia, the G43s have significantly better moving DPS at any range.
8.8/5.3/3.8 at ranges 10/20/35 for the G43
6.1/3.2/1.1 at ranges 10/20/35 for the STG 44

The G43 also has significantly better long range DPS, at 200-400% of the STG 44, at ranges 30-35.


In real ingame scenarios this makes them a lot more versatile than the STG 44s, because they become good at all ranges rather than being forced to close in. And the extra moving DPS compensates for the lower close to mid range DPS when assaulting or chasing. Especially at vet 1 with -16% RA and on top of that the -10% RA from being near vehicles they can dominate any enemy infantry at long range at that time.

I have to revise some of my previous statements due to a calculation error affecting moving DPS. You're mostly right with your points, BUT:

Serealia is wrong by 0-25% (generally) depending on weapon and range. We need to keep that in mind for discussion and especially for - in your case - also balancing decisions.

The actual DPS is:
Standing
StG 12.3/7.4/1.4
G43 8.1/5.0/3.7
equivalency at 27-28 meters

Moving
StG 6.6/3.7/0.7
G43 7.1/4.6/3.4

Serealia exaggerates the difference quite a lot. G43s are indeed better on the move, but only by about 10% up to range 20, then they go up to 500% albeit at relatively low to okay DPS.


I have a couple of issues with your points though:
- At the very edge, the advantage is not worth as much because 1) the formation forces you to move an additional couple of meters in so that all models can shoot. This reduces the actual fighting distance by a couple of meters (which is significant when we only have ~5 meters of leeway). And 2) you need to look for cover. Moving away 5 meters gets you out of range so the squad is useless. You'd rather have to move in 5 meters to the closest sand bag.
- Ostheer already has a long range squad with Grens that have better DPS compared to G43 PGrens coincidentally from range 27 upwards as well with better DPS retention. So for static fights, an LMG Gren is way more effective in damage and cost.


I can see now that they might have a niche as chasers, but there are some oddities with the upgrade.
Units with good moving DPS should also have better close DPS (otherwise there is no real benefit of closing in). The mid-close range downgrade makes them a weird choice for assaulting positions.
The upgrade is combined with sprint which is not as valuable for G43s especially on PGrens. Yes, you can maybe cut into a retreat path. But having an ability that allows you to close in but disables weapons is a weird choice if the actual strengths of your upgrade is long range and moving combat
If I can bridge the first 5-10 meters (remember the speed boost at vet1 near vehicles that you mentioned), StGs are the better choice. I trade 10% moving DPS vs the ability to stand still and do between 30-50% more DPS anytime.


With the new numbers I can see where the G43 might find its niche on PGrens, but I don't think the case is very clear and it is overall a very odd upgrade.

interesting analysis. i've always felt that the G43 upgrade turns my PGrens into terminators, but maybe that was just due to the flashy firing sound of the rifles. if the only gain is merely a bit more DPS at range 30+ and the occasional chance for interrogation, i feel the mun cost together with the drastic DPS loss on mid to low range make PGren G43s a really awful upgrade.

Just did some quick tests in the game. G43s are literally utter trash.
4 fights PGrens StG/G43 vs unupgraded Rangers from range 20 and 30-ish (actually the way the sandbags were set up I think it was more like 28-29)

PGrens win convincingly at range 20 with 2-3 models and ~50% HP remaining.
With G43s, they lost one fight, two fights won with about 2 models and 20-30% HP remaining and the fourth fight was literally a shootout between the last PGren and the last Ranger that could have gone either way.

At 30 range, in my tests they performed similar to maybe a bit worse to StGs. But given that it were only 4 fights, similar is a good description.


I used to get the upgrade because I heard AE and Ed80Hertz say the G43 were good on PGrens in some long ago tourney. But whenever I got it, I had the feeling normal PGrens would do just fine and looking at the tests and numbers I am pretty sure I am right on this.

There is no reason to get this upgrade. Interrogation? I could as well just get a Gren with G43s. Still a downgrade, but at least only on a 240 MP squad.
And I previously forgot about sprint. But why should I? There might be some situations where I can lob this bundle nade in, but overall it does not make sense. I don't want to close in to use my inferior DPS. And why should I sprint away just to get similar DPS compared to StGs? There are situations where this makes sense tactically, but overall it is not worth the heavy downgrade.