All that are simply irrelevant to the point I made (some of it is also simply false). My point is quite simple that the original design of Ostheer no longer applies after all the changes the game has seen.
And every single balance team member have said to you about 1000 times its not going to happen regardless of how many times you will repeat it in all the different threads.
Tracking reveals inf on the minimap not tanks. That is not as benificial for a pure AT unit.
The combination of these abilities still leaves the su85 with nerfed speed stuck in it for a few seconds and vision is still in a cone.
If you use tracking without spotting then it is free of penalties. But then it does not see further then stock recon units i wager.
Other td's have either rof, hp, armour, camo, skill shot, turret, actual ai, speed or a combination over the su85. Its one and only signature feature over other td's is spotting and imo that is the justification and has to stay. Standardizing is not the solution to everything.
If the su85 gets something else then tracking or some pop or vet adjustments i am fine with that.
Su-85 has one of the best guns in the game. The unit is cost efficient even without focus sight/trucking.
grens since the dawn of time were never supposed to be without support. ...
And:
Soviet where not meant to have semi-elite stock mainline infantry
USF where not meant to support from good support weapons
UKF where not meant to have snare
Problem is that there is power creep and although grenadier have received buff the "combined arms" thing does not seem to work any more since other faction can either counter it with equally effective combined arm or with sear brute force. Something that Ostheer do with PGs.
And that is why imo one should start nerfing the other factions instead of buffing Ostheer.
Do we? Do you think the calliope should be stock? Or are you taking that underlined sentence out of context and choosing to isolate it?
I highlight what part is we agree in. "I've thought the Calliope is bad design for ages."
If one wants to make Calliope stock one might end up redesign the USF because things like Scott and Major arty might have to go. Simply adding the Calliope to existing USF roster is not something I would agree
I'm well aware of the tech cost vipper, I literally just mentioned that for the walking stuka. Having access to rocket arty EVERY game no matter what > than no tech cost if you happen to pick the commanders. That was my point
"it's 30 more fuel than Katy and werfer" this is what I responded and I simply pointed out that comparing a unit with high tech cost and one with no cost can be misleading even if it doctrinal. Especially if one keep in mind that the majority of doctrinal vehicles currently have a tech cost.
As I have already pointed out imo the problem has more to do with Urban commander than calliope itself.
You guys did read the "im fine with 360" part, right?
I've thought the Calliope is bad design for ages. Should be weaker but stock, late-game artillery should not require doctrine for some and be always there for others
Then we agree, my point was that even if it "justified" for price it can still be problematic especially if it is difficult to counter.
@Hannibal. 10-15? That only applies to w. Stuka (which can arrive way earlier), it's 30 more fuel than Katy and werfer
Well when talking about cost one has to keep in mind that Calliope has no tech cost especially when compared to katy and wefer.
Imo it rather difficult to find the correct way to balance the unit (one could start by increasing minimum range) but urban commander adds to problem of Calliope since it offers simply to much. The unit should simply not be in that commander.
I'm fine with 360, but I don't understand your confusion. It's the most expensive rocket artillery, and it's not even stock. Pretty good reasons right there if you ask me...
Even if it is "justified" it bad from gameplay/designed point of view since Calliope are very hard counter. They can not be countered by artillery/off maps while one has to dive and risk more expensive unit to try to kill them. Even if one succeeds in killing the with a dive he might end up losing a more expensive unit and thus have a bad trade.
Recon vehicles offer vision 360° are faster even with extra long sight. And mostly dont need an ability for it. Esp not one that slows you down and gives eye caps for tunnel vision.
Imo thats enough downsides to balance the upsides.
The problem comes form the fact that abilities stack and the unit has mini map information on top of that for the duration. A Su-85 with both abilities can see further than most (if not all) stock reckon vehicles. There is nothing to justify that.
The su85 has no ai, is casemate, not very durable or fast compared to other td,s.
I dont see any problem with its vision ability. Maybe a slight rof nerf during the ability should be added to emphezise focuzing on aming. But it usualy gets off only 1 maybe 2 shots in this mode. So its a big maybe imo.
The Su-85 can combine focus sight and sight from tracking allowing to see further away than most units.
As a TD it already comes with one of the best guns in game, it does not need to able to act as great reckon vehicle also.