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russian armor

Wehrmacht problems.

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18 May 2019, 19:32 PM
#21
avatar of TheOldBreed

Posts: 76

I suck so bad at coh2 i guess i should quit.
18 May 2019, 21:29 PM
#22
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

I suck so bad at coh2 i guess i should quit.


It's more likely that you are just facing people who have x1000 more experience than you, whether they are good or bad.

Waiting for a patch is not gonna fix your problems. It's just a matter of keep playing. If 1v1 is too stressful just jump on 4v4.

Upload a replay of a game you think you play well and lost or some on which you struggle and don't know why.
19 May 2019, 03:56 AM
#23
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739



Allied td,s get stronger in their td role because axis have more acces to heavy and superheavy tanks. Axis tanks get more hp or armour or both with vet. No allied tank gets that.

The ost mortar did fire 2 to 3 times as fast. 2 times until about a year ago when mortar rof was brought closer together. Katty is about saturation, its really luck if it wipes a wpn crew.

Allied mg,s may have higher dps but are more likely to eat nades because of lower supression. Maxim is easy to dercrew because of deathloop. In a lot of situations that a maxims get wiped the mg42 almost always escapes.
I think ost team weapons are solid. Yes they are squishy but excel at their job.

Ost always had squishy squads that didnt change, their early game did not suck as hard as sov and usf late game did before. soviets and usf went from sucking hard to being viable late game. Soviets did suck early game and late game at one point. No more paper tanks/tds shooting blanks. No more rngesus inf from soviets.

That imo is the main reason ost appears to struglle now.


That is the thing. Ost heavy and superheavy tanks are gutted, and no longer applies. While Allies TD function get progressive stronger on vet, which makes late game ost really bad, lost on the infantry front and now the tanks.

If we do a simple 50% front + 50% rear armor for total, you get today, and you see why Ost drops off late game. The armor buff at vet2 only bring them closer with Allies heavy. Hence one suggestion is to give panther some AP rounds at vet1. And probably can afford only 1 panther in 1v1 or 2v2, unless you dont care enough to cap against allies superior infantry.

Elefant 255
ISU 247.5

Brumbar 182.5
BrumbarV2 207
KV8 202.50
Churchill 210
Croc/Avre 235

IS2 257.50
Tiger 220

Panther 175
PantherV2 192.50
Pershing 205
Comet 200
KV1 217.50
KV2 240
19 May 2019, 08:23 AM
#24
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739

Another suggestion to move stun round from pak to panther at vet1, to complement its mobile AT role. Allies td will be less comfortable when being flanked. Now they have enough hp to take on a flanking panther.

For pak, remove stun and replace with 200hp damage.

For stug, perhaps lower its popcap from 10 to 9 and fuel from 90 to 80. Have an option for stug train, like allies can do t34/76, wolerines, cromwell. Besides stug is purely AT, so it seems ok
19 May 2019, 12:52 PM
#25
avatar of TheOldBreed

Posts: 76

Thanks everyone
19 May 2019, 14:26 PM
#26
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2759 | Subs: 4

Ostheer seems to have some difficulties in 1v1 (I dont play 1v1), but anyone who says that Ostheer is weak in teamgames is most likely just a bad Ostheer player for all I care.
19 May 2019, 18:22 PM
#27
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2019, 03:56 AMmrgame2


That is the thing. Ost heavy and superheavy tanks are gutted, and no longer applies. While Allies TD function get progressive stronger on vet, which makes late game ost really bad, lost on the infantry front and now the tanks.


If we do a simple 50% front + 50% rear armor for total, you get today, and you see why Ost drops off late game. The armor buff at vet2 only bring them closer with Allies heavy. Hence one suggestion is to give panther some AP rounds at vet1. And probably can afford only 1 panther in 1v1 or 2v2, unless you dont care enough to cap against allies superior infantry.

Elefant 255
ISU 247.5

Brumbar 182.5
BrumbarV2 207
KV8 202.50
Churchill 210
Croc/Avre 235

IS2 257.50
Tiger 220

Panther 175
PantherV2 192.50
Pershing 205
Comet 200
KV1 217.50
KV2 240


I use coh2 db for my stats. It seems up to date mostly. The panther armour rating is higher then you say on that site. 260 according to coh2db. To my knolidge panthers still can bounce of the su85 frontaly. If the panther has 175 armour it should always penetrate.

The panther also has simaler pen as the allied tds, it has a turret is fast and mobile, has heavy crush and at least has ai. Only the range is a real downside.

You also did not list the king tiger. It has more armour then the is2. And its non doc and imo has a better gun.the su85 jackson and ff are meant to be able to halt it or force it off.

And the supirior allied infantry is much more expensive to get to max level or are locked in commander and still cost more.

Again this is according to coh2db. If the stats i stated are wrong please feel free to correct me.
19 May 2019, 23:10 PM
#28
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3047

Sounds like some patience and practice will do more than any balance patch will here tbh. It's a hard game with a tough learning curve and a lot to keep track of. Just keep playing and learning man.
20 May 2019, 00:49 AM
#29
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 379 | Subs: 1

Ostheer seems to have some difficulties in 1v1 (I dont play 1v1), but anyone who says that Ostheer is weak in teamgames is most likely just a bad Ostheer player for all I care.


Literally no one said this.
20 May 2019, 08:44 AM
#30
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739



I use coh2 db for my stats. It seems up to date mostly. The panther armour rating is higher then you say on that site. 260 according to coh2db. To my knolidge panthers still can bounce of the su85 frontaly. If the panther has 175 armour it should always penetrate.

The panther also has simaler pen as the allied tds, it has a turret is fast and mobile, has heavy crush and at least has ai. Only the range is a real downside.

You also did not list the king tiger. It has more armour then the is2. And its non doc and imo has a better gun.the su85 jackson and ff are meant to be able to halt it or force it off.

And the supirior allied infantry is much more expensive to get to max level or are locked in commander and still cost more.

Again this is according to coh2db. If the stats i stated are wrong please feel free to correct me.


Coh2 armor hit box is 50% of vehicle is front, and 50% is rear. So your low rear panther armor is really 50% of the tank, as such you encounter many cases where su85 can shoot 30 degree off front and score a rear armor hit. Besides allies td ignore armor values on veterancy.

Another way to fix is to move the hit box from 50/50 to 70/30 perhaps.

And KT is not ost tank.
20 May 2019, 09:00 AM
#31
avatar of Farlon

Posts: 184



You also did not list the king tiger. It has more armour then the is2...
If the stats i stated are wrong please feel free to correct me.

KT and IS2 have the same amount of frontal armour.
20 May 2019, 11:31 AM
#32
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2019, 08:44 AMmrgame2


Coh2 armor hit box is 50% of vehicle is front, and 50% is rear. So your low rear panther armor is really 50% of the tank, as such you encounter many cases where su85 can shoot 30 degree off front and score a rear armor hit. Besides allies td ignore armor values on veterancy.

Another way to fix is to move the hit box from 50/50 to 70/30 perhaps.

And KT is not ost tank.


Yes the kt isent an ost tank. But you cant ignore it when talking about non doc td,s considering the kt is also non doc.

50% of the front value being the rear armour had nothing to do with my remarks. Scoring a rear armour shot from the front is rng as hell. And just how do allied td,s ignore armour value with vet? Do they get a value that lets them always pen anything? No they dont, they get increased with vet, so do most armour values of ost tanks.

As what i assume to be true is that the panthers front armour is 260 and not 175. The pen from an su85 is around 200 far and 240 near. The panther can still bounce su 85 rounds so its armour cant be as low as 175.

But as @farlon points out is that the kt and is2 have the same frontal armour. Coh2db also states this, i overlooked that one.

I still believe that because allies no longer have td,s that bounce about 50% of their shots from panthers and even more against heavier targets.

Usf and soviet late game got better equiped to deal with panthers,kt and all sort of heavy armour totaly wrecked them. Beat ost within x minutes loose is no more thank god.
20 May 2019, 11:38 AM
#33
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13275 | Subs: 1



Yes the kt isent an ost tank. But you cant ignore it when talking about non doc td,s considering the kt is also non doc.

50% of the front value being the rear armour had nothing to do with my remarks. Scoring a rear armour shot from the front is rng as hell. And just how do allied td,s ignore armour value with vet? Do they get a value that lets them always pen anything? No they dont, they get increased with vet, so do most armour values of ost tanks.

As what i assume to be true is that the panthers front armour is 260 and not 175. The pen from an su85 is around 200 far and 240 near. The panther can still bounce su 85 rounds so its armour cant be as low as 175.

But as @farlon points out is that the kt and is2 have the same frontal armour. Coh2db also states this, i overlooked that one.

I still believe that because allies no longer have td,s that bounce about 50% of their shots from panthers and even more against heavier targets.

Usf and soviet late game got better equiped to deal with panthers,kt and all sort of heavy armour totaly wrecked them. Beat ost within x minutes loose is no more thank god.

Su-85
penetration values
Vet 0
Penetration near 240
Penetration mid 230
Penetration far 220

vet 2
Penetration near 312
Penetration mid 299
Penetration far 286


A vet 2 Su-86 has 100% chance to penetrate a Panther at all ranges.
20 May 2019, 13:29 PM
#34
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

Something needs to be done with the tier 2 force tech, into defensive AT guns. Ost is trash because it is and always has been a reaction defensive faction. With scout vehicles and light tanks being a go to for allies every game, it has become stale, and if you over extend at all, you lose your AT gun then the game, unless as mentioned before panic puma, that's why OKW is good because tier 0 racken, and lethal tier 2 AI/AT capabilities.

AT gun available in HQ after tier 2 tech
SC available in HQ after tier 2 tech
Switch sniper for AT gun.

Just a few ideas off the top of my head.
20 May 2019, 13:32 PM
#35
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2019, 11:38 AMVipper

Su-85
penetration values
Vet 0
Penetration near 240
Penetration mid 230
Penetration far 220

vet 2
Penetration near 312
Penetration mid 299
Penetration far 286


A vet 2 Su-86 has 100% chance to penetrate a Panther at all ranges.

Go away with your stats. This game is about feelings.
20 May 2019, 13:38 PM
#36
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8


Go away with your stats. This game is about feelings.

Exactly!
Groundless feelings without any kind of data this discussion is all about as indicated by OP!
20 May 2019, 22:37 PM
#37
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2019, 11:38 AMVipper

Su-85
penetration values
Vet 0
Penetration near 240
Penetration mid 230
Penetration far 220

vet 2
Penetration near 312
Penetration mid 299
Penetration far 286


A vet 2 Su-86 has 100% chance to penetrate a Panther at all ranges.


A su 85 has no turret, no ai or aa, is less mobile, can selfspot but with drawbacks to speed and sight is confined in a cone.
As far as i know turning counts as moving and cuts the su85,s accuracy in half. If i am wrong please inform me of this. I am not sure about this.


While i do agree that is a pretty big pen vet bonus. But it needs a pen bonus non the less, damage or rof bonus dont make sense imo at least.


21 May 2019, 07:04 AM
#38
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13275 | Subs: 1


A su 85 has no turret, no ai or aa, is less mobile, can selfspot but with drawbacks to speed and sight is confined in a cone.

Su-85 can selfspot with vet 1 ability without any penalties. It can actually combine the 2 abilities and have one of longest sight bonuses.


As far as i know turning counts as moving and cuts the su85,s accuracy in half. If i am wrong please inform me of this. I am not sure about this.

turning count as moving as far as I know but SU-85's gun can fire at 30 degrees angle so it will probably stationary when firing.


While i do agree that is a pretty big pen vet bonus. But it needs a pen bonus non the less, damage or rof bonus dont make sense imo at least.

Su-85 has one of the best vet bonuses for its gun and very good base stats. The combination makes the unit having high accuracy, penetration and ROF while being relatively cheap and relatively low Pop.

The unit is simply OP.
21 May 2019, 07:38 AM
#39
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3476 | Subs: 1

Panthers suffer from JTG, Elefant, old Tiger Ace, old Tiger and KT, since Allied factions need to be able to deal with those units with their stock units, it obviously impacts the encounter with the panther.
21 May 2019, 08:12 AM
#40
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13275 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2019, 07:38 AMEsxile
Panthers suffer from JTG, Elefant, old Tiger Ace, old Tiger and KT, since Allied factions need to be able to deal with those units with their stock units, it obviously impacts the encounter with the panther.

Panther suffer from the fact that when their armor was lowered the Penetration of stock allied TD's was not also nerfed.

Allied stock TD are not meant to engage JT and Elephant frontally, if they prove a problem one can easily lower their frontal armor accordingly.

KT is actually a unit that is UP and it would be in far better place if allied stock TD's penetration was not that high.
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