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Soviet Core changes commander Revamp Patch

1 May 2019, 09:25 AM
#1
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5227 | Subs: 1

Soviets - General faction changes (updated to ver. 8)

Conscripts

To improve the performance of Conscripts, while retaining their role as utility infantry that excel at shielding and supporting other units, we have added an upgrade to help them scale into the late game. The extra man and reduced reinforce cost will allow them to more effectively trade against opposing infantry while the veterancy bonus will help fresh Conscript squads gain veterancy.

New squad upgrade available after the Mechanized Armor Kampaneya is deployed.
Mobilized Reserves: Increases squad size by 1, reduces squad reinforce cost to 17 and increases veterancy gain by 20%. Takes up one weapon slot. Costs 50 munitions.
When upgraded with Mobilize Reserves, weapon cooldown and reload on Mosin Nagant rifles is reduced by 50% when in cover.

Range Numbers: 0/10/20/30/35
Conscript Rifle: 3.61/2.6/1.98/1.346/1.0
Conscript Rifle in Cover: 3.91/2.87/2.21/1.54/1.22

Conscript AT Grenade Package
Fuel cost from 25 to 10.

M1910 Maxim


In order to increase the general viability of Maxims, without promoting Maxim spam, we are increasing suppression when using the Sustained Fire ability.

The following change is intended to allow the Maxim to better suppress tactical control groups when the player is spotting for their Maxim and using the Sustained Fire ability in a strategic fashion.

Sustained Fire ability now increases suppression by 25%. This will be adjusted as necessary.

M-42 Anti-Tank Gun


The range on canister rounds is being reduced to increase infantry-based counterplay against groups of M42 ATGs.

Canister range from 50 to 35.
Cost from 200 to 240

M5 Half-Track

The M5 is receiving a small number of changes to improve its role as a support vehicle.

Cost from 270/30 to 240/30
M2HB Quad mount moving burst from 0.5 to 0.75
M2HB Quad mount far accuracy from 0.1 to 0.125
M2HB Quad mount burst duration from 1/5 to 1.5/2
M2HB Quad mount Cost from 100 to 90

SU-76

The SU-76 is receiving a number of slight changes to improve its role against light and medium vehicles with only a slight reduction against heavy tanks.

Accuracy from 0.05/0.035/0.025 to 0.05/0.04/0.0375
Penetration from 200/190/180 to 180/170/160
Rotation rate from 30 to 32
1 May 2019, 09:31 AM
#2
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5227 | Subs: 1

Su-76
The unit's XP value is simply way too low.
With the new changes the unit is way to accurate once vetted.

Suggestion:
Increase XP value

Further decrease penetration but swap accuracy bonus for a penetration bonus.
Reason, the unit will be better vs light vehicles but worse vs mediums tanks but it will be able to scale vs mediums with veterancy.

M5 Half-Track

The unit AA capabilities is simply OP compared to any other AA weapon.

The suppression mechanism is rather complicated

Suggestion:
Decrease AA capabilities.

Replace the vet 1 ability with a timed ability that allowing suppression.
1 May 2019, 09:47 AM
#3
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 218

I think just give Cons DP LMG upgrade after T3 or T4 is enough,no need so many flashy thing……
And SU76 maybe should increase damage to 160 at vet2 or vet3?and I saw an interesting suggest,change SU76 barrage to switch ability,when switch to barrage su76 can't move and weapon change be howitzer like USF M1 75mm howitzer
1 May 2019, 18:09 PM
#4
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 2589 | Subs: 1

7.0 reduced the cover bonus, it is no longer 50%
1 May 2019, 18:17 PM
#5
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4333

I think just give Cons DP LMG upgrade after T3 or T4 is enough,no need so many flashy thing……


DP feels uninspired to me, a 'park behind cover and try to beat grenadiers at their own game' weapon. I'd much rather have a global PPSh upgrade (specially scaled so that it's not a downgrade at any range), and leave the DP to a Doctrine (perhaps replacing PPSh).

There's also a squad logo in the game files like the Conscript's icon, but with crossed PPSh's. It would be perfect for represented Conscripts after they'd received their upgrade, as it wouldn't hide any salvaged weapons they might gain.
3 May 2019, 14:15 PM
#6
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5227 | Subs: 1

M-42 Anti-Tank Gun


Imo the ability should either be remove or made useful, the current solution seem to turn it into a useless option.

Suggestion:
Canister either removed or turned into a single shot with a small munition cost that does damage but remain weak.




M1910 Maxim
The ability is rather difficult to use since it take time to prepare.

Suggestion:
Reduce the time (or remove the) to reload of the unit.
Make the ability scale with veterancy even moving to vet 0.

Conscripts
Does the bonus gain in veterancy mean faster XP gain or lower XP value?
The bonuses of lower reinforcement cost more durability and faster XP gain are enough on their own the unit does not need more DPS. Keep in mind that conscripts do not need to win the fight the can win via attrition especially vs 4 men squads that have a high reinforcement cost.

The combination of ourah and cover bonuses make this unit too flexible especially vs grenadier.
If one want to solidify upgrade conscript as a defensive infatry one should simply redesign the abilities of the unit.

Suggestion:
Either simply remove the cover bonuses and lower MU cost for the upgrade
or
Redesign the abilities on the upgraded unit.
1) Ourah replaced by hit the ground (ability could scale with veterancy)
2) Molotov replaced by frag grenade
3) Range of At grenade increased

These changes would solidly the unit as defensive oriented unit.

3 May 2019, 18:15 PM
#7
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 291

jump backJump back to quoted post3 May 2019, 14:15 PMVipper
M-42 Anti-Tank Gun


Imo the ability should either be remove or made useful, the current solution seem to turn it into a useless option.

Suggestion:
Canister either removed or turned into a single shot with a small munition cost that does damage but remain weak.




M1910 Maxim
The ability is rather difficult to use since it take time to prepare.

Suggestion:
Reduce the time (or remove the) to reload of the unit.
Make the ability scale with veterancy even moving to vet 0.

Conscripts
Does the bonus gain in veterancy mean faster XP gain or lower XP value?
The bonuses of lower reinforcement cost more durability and faster XP gain are enough on their own the unit does not need more DPS. Keep in mind that conscripts do not need to win the fight the can win via attrition especially vs 4 men squads that have a high reinforcement cost.

The combination of ourah and cover bonuses make this unit too flexible especially vs grenadier.
If one want to solidify upgrade conscript as a defensive infatry one should simply redesign the abilities of the unit.

Suggestion:
Either simply remove the cover bonuses and lower MU cost for the upgrade
or
Redesign the abilities on the upgraded unit.
1) Ourah replaced by hit the ground (ability could scale with veterancy)
2) Molotov replaced by frag grenade
3) Range of At grenade increased

These changes would solidly the unit as defensive oriented unit.



I also warned of a few things like Jaeger buff, but there's no reason why your word should be gospel.

M42 needs to be treated delicately or it will end up a poor mans ZiS
3 May 2019, 19:11 PM
#8
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 612 | Subs: 1

M42 needs to be treated delicately or it will end up a poor mans ZiS


But this is a good thing. :romeoHairDay:
3 May 2019, 19:46 PM
#9
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 2589 | Subs: 1

The maxim "fix" is atrocious. The MG is a bloody oxymoron. Making it rely on vet despite it being prone to death looping is just an awful awful "fix" agreed with vipper. At least make it a non vet ability so instead of needing vet, munitions and pre-planning to do its only job it'll instead be the only MG that needs munitions and pre-planning. To do its only job. But the extra work is worth it of course because it's so cheap and certainly not as/more expensive with teching than the best MG in the game...
3 May 2019, 19:49 PM
#10
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 182

I think the Maxim should be just replaced with the mg34 model with different stats to get rid of the deathloop. The game would lose some authenticity, but would become much more functional.
3 May 2019, 19:57 PM
#11
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1375 | Subs: 3

I think the Maxim should be just replaced with the mg34 model with different stats to get rid of the deathloop. The game would lose some authenticity, but would become much more functional.


Again, all Maxim needs is a bit direct suppression buff, but not build up complex mechanics: Maxim is a machine gun, he should have good suppression, and not pay ammunition for what he should do by default, like other machine guns.
3 May 2019, 20:02 PM
#12
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 182



Again, all Maxim needs is a bit direct suppression buff, but not build up complex mechanics: Maxim is a machine gun, he should have good suppression, and not pay ammunition for what he should do by default, like other machine guns.


I understand that, but every time I propose something I get told that a 6man mg can’t be too good. When I suggest it gets reduced to 5 or 4 men, I get told that 6 men are there to compensate for the deathloop.

Apparently either solve the deathloop or the maxim remains useless.
3 May 2019, 20:23 PM
#13
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1375 | Subs: 3



I understand that, but every time I propose something I get told that a 6man mg can’t be too good. When I suggest it gets reduced to 5 or 4 men, I get told that 6 men are there to compensate for the deathloop.

Apparently either solve the deathloop or the maxim remains useless.


It's funny that in reality the full crew of Maxim 7 people:


I think it is possible increase the suppression and not do Maxim OP, need a bit to work with the characteristics.
3 May 2019, 23:00 PM
#14
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5227 | Subs: 1



I also warned of a few things like Jaeger buff, but there's no reason why your word should be gospel.

M42 needs to be treated delicately or it will end up a poor mans ZiS

I did not claim that my words are the gospel.
3 May 2019, 23:05 PM
#15
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1640

Again, all Maxim needs is a bit direct suppression buff, but not build up complex mechanics: Maxim is a machine gun, he should have good suppression, and not pay ammunition for what he should do by default, like other machine guns.


You can't have good suppression, good setup/pack up time and 6 men durability. There's a reason that got nerfed in the past. OKW wouldn't stand a chance in the first five minutes on most team game maps.
3 May 2019, 23:07 PM
#16
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2275

You can't have good suppression, good setup/pack up time and 6 men durability. There's a reason that got nerfed in the past. OKW wouldn't stand a chance in the first five minutes on most team game maps.


Then I'd take good suppression/good packup or good suppression/6 man durability.

Suppression is what HMGs are for. If I want damage, I'll build another infantry squad.
4 May 2019, 02:23 AM
#17
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 2589 | Subs: 1



You can't have good suppression, good setup/pack up time and 6 men durability. There's a reason that got nerfed in the past. OKW wouldn't stand a chance in the first five minutes on most team game maps.


Well it's not like there was literally any alternative to maxim spam at the time. Cons were and are trash who, *ahem* don't stand a chance Past 5 minutes against okw on all maps.
Maybe having something attractive to support the maxim instead of literally just more maxims would help elevate the spam of maxims. With t2 only having maxims and being an alternative to having infantry (because cons are literally worse volks who are only allowed to start scaling after tanks hit the field, not once they tech up for the 1st time) its literally maxims or bust. Bad faction design lead to a spammed MG lead to a nerfed MG that cant do its job unless spammed. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. As long as the maxim (and cons) are absolutely garbage, which they are, the only time you will EVER see maxims is in a spam. Because there is quite LITERALLY no other viable option. Penals or bust.
4 May 2019, 16:52 PM
#18
avatar of Superhet

Posts: 132



Well it's not like there was literally any alternative to maxim spam at the time. Cons were and are trash who, *ahem* don't stand a chance Past 5 minutes against okw on all maps.
Maybe having something attractive to support the maxim instead of literally just more maxims would help elevate the spam of maxims. With t2 only having maxims and being an alternative to having infantry (because cons are literally worse volks who are only allowed to start scaling after tanks hit the field, not once they tech up for the 1st time) its literally maxims or bust. Bad faction design lead to a spammed MG lead to a nerfed MG that cant do its job unless spammed. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. As long as the maxim (and cons) are absolutely garbage, which they are, the only time you will EVER see maxims is in a spam. Because there is quite LITERALLY no other viable option. Penals or bust.


Even when the maxim was a decent unit, it's not like Soviets were overpowered. This was in the context of a different balance state, where the Axis late game was stronger or the Soviets late game weaker than now and you were supposed to win early or lose. As you noted, no one spammed maxims because they wanted to but because they had to.

Now maxims suck, conscripts are trash as they have been since release because they cost and bleed too much for you to afford supporting them with anything while using them as support is inefficient for the same reason and since their utility is behind tech (and why, if you pick a commander with it, does assault pack come at 3 freaking CPs?). And in team games you do not know who you are fighting against. If you make T1 against Ost, you are screwed. And T1 against OKW only works in a small early window if he doesn't gather his units and lets you pick them off one by one. In both cases, the Axis player needs to screw up while you need to hope he doesn't know what he's doing.

But instead of remaking the Soviet early tiers so you are not relying on a flimsy gimmick like clown car or spamming the only predictable and counterable unit but that at least does its job, they simply nerf whatever isn't already bad. So now we have trash conscripts, bad maxims that Ost in particular have many counters for, predictable and easily counterable T1 (it's not like penals are good, they are just what you're left with), and the Soviet player themselves don't know which opening to gamble on because they don't know which faction they're fighting or what opening that faction is doing when each requires a different tech.

I play Soviet, Ost, UKF and OKW but at this point I am tired of playing Soviet and UKF. Playing them feels like I am a soldier not only attacking through a route the enemy knows I'm coming, but also with a jammed weapon and chain weight attached to my ankle. I'm thinking of trying USF to see if they're any different, and if not I'll probably simply play more and more Axis and less of the messed up factions. Ost in particular I feel is easy, powerful and versatile (and becomes even more versatile with commanders like T0 halftrack, assault grens, osttruppen, etc.) Why would I play a frustrating, broken mess instead of that? but then who will you play against...?
4 May 2019, 19:29 PM
#19
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 182



(it's not like penals are good, they are just what you're left with)



Literally what?!? Penals are absolutely one of the best infantry units in the game and require 0 munitions to reach their full capabilities. Not to mention satchels.
4 May 2019, 19:37 PM
#20
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2551



You can't have good suppression, good setup/pack up time and 6 men durability. There's a reason that got nerfed in the past. OKW wouldn't stand a chance in the first five minutes on most team game maps.

It has normal setup time now though right?

Deathloop really should be fixed though. I think the changes are good and IMO it doesn't really need a base suppression buff too given that it's six men.
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